Info for would be corn breeders

Originally Posted by Candachan

I'm not assuming that the breeder starts with already poor-quality animals, but if you have a snake with amazing color and a terrible temperament, you can cross with a snake with better temperament in an attempt to breed the bad temperament out. Ideally, only the nicest snakes should be bred, but there are cases where this is not feasable (new morphs, test breedings, etc) Even when breeding 'nice' snakes, I think culling animals that don't meet your standards for the animals you are trying to produce IS being responsible.

What about SG snakes? The hets are healthy, but they are culled. They are being 'penalized' because of the potential that they could be bred.

To frame the topic a little differently, i can understand the culling method if these snakes were being bred to find the cure for cancer or something equally important. I just find it silly that they're being culled for not having a cool paint job or for behaving like snakes. Being a newbie, i guess i'm just naive about the business side of it. I thought that people would be more concerned about their *pet* snakes, especially after numerous people gloat about how cute and cuddly their snakes are and how much they love them. If that's the case, then how can they turn around and cull hatchlings so easily and quickly. I'm generalizing a bit there, but i think the scenario applies to some people.

I also understand that there's a competitive morph market out there, and most people would choose a cool sunkissed or bloodred over a normal, so breeders often need to make tough choices based on economics. I myself have an okeetee, which has been selectively bred, so apparently i'm a hyprocrite because who knows what my breeder did, but i won't make the same mistake again. We have to make wise choices both from the seller and buyer side.

I don't know enough about the stargazer gene, but if it's something that is detrimental to the snake or has potential to be detrimental to its offspring, then i think it's acceptable to cull it.

Excellent thread Jen! I almost decided to try a pairing, but then spent some time researching and decided not to largely because of the saturated market.

Also, I would rather buy from someone who culls sub par animals than someone who tries to save every single hatchling. I feel like I'd have a better chance of picking up high quality animals. I see nothing wrong with humane culling, especially if the culled hatchlings are then fed off. (I have an indigo snake who would love to have baby corns/kings to nom!)

The mouse fancy has a similar approach to culling. Surplus males are often culled, and at times entire lines are culled (including adult animals) when health problems are discovered in said lines. It is always done humanely, and with the betterment of the species in mind.

Somewhat off topic, my sister has a totally docile, amazingly sweet Cal King, and I wish there were more like him in the world.

This is a great post. I like to tell people one word of advice when people tell me they want to breed anything (tends to be geckos when people ask me but still applies). I say 'get a hatchling raise it for 6m then get your 2ed and make sure its under a year old. Raise them up to adults then once they are good and ready to breed consider it. Don't just jump into the deep end.' Thats my .02 anyways. I followed my own advice with corns though I kept them over ten years ago to. I got a 3x feed male in Oct and then just got my 2ed one about a week ago.

Originally Posted by slitheringdead

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Again, i understand that people want docile and easy to feed snakes, but you need to approach the breeding aspect of it in a patient and humane way, which may take many generations. Culling is a necessary evil, but we should not compare breeding snakes to make better pets, to domesticating livestock as a source of food, or dogs to help us hunt and herd, or horses and cattle as beasts of burden. The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. That's a very important difference to acknowledge. We're comparing apples and oranges there. However, I think the example that another person brought up about culling puppies because they pee on the floor is very applicable here. That's essentially what is being done to those snakes. They're being killed for behaving like snakes.

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OK...Man selectively bred these for what vital purpose and how is the creation of these any different than what we are doing with snakes?











We created these solely for our pleasure. They serve no other purpose, just like the breeding of snakes for their color...and their temperament. And if you think "culling" doesn't occur elsewhere in our society with other beloved pet species? Have you visited an animal shelter recently to see how many dogs and cats are "culled" on a daily basis? At least snake breeders have the courage and the decency to do their own dirty work and not just dump the excess or undesirables on the street or at these shelters for someone else to deal with.

And who is to say that in 500 years, snakes aren't serving a vital purpose for man by hunting rodent pests in their homes? We've only touched the tip of the iceberg with what we can select for in terms our snakes. Man didn't find a true dog in the wolf pack overnight. He chose the most docile and least aggressive one to keep and killed the rest as he didn't need any more dangerous animals to deal with.

Susan - best comment EVER. I 100% agree.

I stated this in my original post:

"The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. "

I already acknowledged that the pet trade is a self-gratifying business and solely for our pleasure, but i believe there is a more humane approach in doing it. No one is forcing you to breed snakes. If there are too many snakes in the market and you're having a hard time moving your stock, the answer is not to breed more snakes and kill the ones that are dark brown instead of light brown. Stop breeding snakes that you can't properly care for or properly sell/rehome. In regards to color/temperament... do i prefer pretty colors and a snake that is easy to tame? Of course. Would i be willing to kill 10 otherwise normal healthy snakes to simply get that 1 pretty snake? No. That's the difference in my approach. I would be more patient with the process, because ultimately, i gain satisfaction from keeping the actual species. The paint job is less important. That's why i only have one corn even though i find many morphs beautiful.

... and i thought i made it perfectly clear in my posts, but i want to make sure that people know that i'm not singling out snake breeders. My opinion is the same for any type of pet breeder out there.

What vital purpose does the creation of the Sphynx cat fullfill? The modern English Bulldog? Miniature horses? There are numerous breeds out there that were selectively bred for NOTHING but looks and to serve as companion/pet/display animals. Actually, very few domestic cats and dogs actually do the jobs they were originally bred to do. Culling does exist in those breeds, but not to a great extent because we have the ability to sterilize any animals that don't for the ideal of what people are trying to create and maintain.

Wow I have been following this thread all night when ever I got a chance as I loaded and unloaded. I have to say I've been breeding for over 20 years on and off and I have never heard of anyone killing off perfectly healthy and normal snakes to reach the final solution. I was pretty creaped out by the first post. Yet what is freaking me out even more is the amount of people who support this, many of you Ladies too! I am all for selective breeding. I have argued many many times that I believe we can correct many problems such as puny babies, fertility, and yes even acceptence of pinkies over lizards. However it never crossed my mind to kill off all the snakes that didn't meet the target criteria. I am selectively breeding Gray bands right now for blue color, but I will sell off the ones that I don't want to keep in the project. I'll sell them cheaply if I have to. I just get a sickly feeling when I see innocent animals killed for no real good reason. Maybe it's my religious background I don't know? It's just not something I could do. Life is precious and if I bring an animal into the world then I have some responsibility for it's well being. Am I too old fashion? Another point I have to bring up is I believe there is a divide between Corn Snake people, and King Snake people! That's not meant to be a put down. I'm just making an observation. I'm pretty sure if this subject cam up on the King Snake Forum I hang out on, it would not be recieved well. I may be wrong who knows. Maybe I'll start the topic and just sit back and see what kind of response I get. It would be interesting to see. At least for me anyway. Slithering Dead I hear you brother but i don't think anyone else does bro! We're out numbered for sure. I really am shocked but that's ok. I am learning new things all the time. Even after 20 plus years.

Originally Posted by Snakehead

Wow I have been following this thread all night when ever I got a chance as I loaded and unloaded. I have to say I've been breeding for over 20 years on and off and I have never heard of anyone killing off perfectly healthy and normal snakes to reach the final solution. I was pretty creaped out by the first post. Yet what is freaking me out even more is the amount of people who support this, many of you Ladies too! I am all for selective breeding. I have argued many many times that I believe we can correct many problems such as puny babies, fertility, and yes even acceptence of pinkies over lizards. However it never crossed my mind to kill off all the snakes that didn't meet the target criteria. I am selectively breeding Gray bands right now for blue color, but I will sell off the ones that I don't want to keep in the project. I'll sell them cheaply if I have to. I just get a sickly feeling when I see innocent animals killed for no real good reason. Maybe it's my religious background I don't know? It's just not something I could do. Life is precious and if I bring an animal into the world then I have some responsibility for it's well being. Am I too old fashion? Another point I have to bring up is I believe there is a divide between Corn Snake people, and King Snake people! That's not meant to be a put down. I'm just making an observation. I'm pretty sure if this subject cam up on the King Snake Forum I hang out on, it would not be recieved well. I may be wrong who knows. Maybe I'll start the topic and just sit back and see what kind of response I get. It would be interesting to see. At least for me anyway. Slithering Dead I hear you brother but i don't think anyone else does bro! We're out numbered for sure. I really am shocked but that's ok. I am learning new things all the time. Even after 20 plus years.

In some ways I feel the same. It would be a hard decision for me to make, as I love the snakes. I couldn't cull them and don't have the time or space for 30-40 snakes that weren't "marketable". This is but one reason I'll never be a breeder.

That being said, I think it's a bit hypocritical for any snake owner to be claiming the respect for life arguement for breeders not culling. Is the snake's life more important than the mouse's life that is given to feed it? Really, if you can claim to have such high "respect for life" you wouldn't be able to stomach feeding your snake, or even keeping them. And I'm betting you're not vegan, although I could be wrong about that.

If you claim love for the snakes, like I do, than claim the love for snakes. However if you feed animals to your snakes and eat them yourself, to claim "respect for life" based on being religious and still do these things, well, that's just hypocritical and a poor arguement at best.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.