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Info for would be corn breeders

elrojo said:
I'm not selling snakes with a baggie of frozen anole so the new owner can scent to get his snake to eat.
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Why not? Haha, if you only have three or four snakes then it seems to me like scenting one of the snakes food doesn't seem like that much trouble at all.

On to the main topic of this thread, I think the first post was very well written and something every beginner corn snake breeder should read before even thinking about breeding. There is so much involved in breeding, and there is a huge difference between reading it all on paper and being able to recite what to do and actually doing it. It's an ordeal, and it can be very rewarding... or not. And you have to be prepared for at least some heartbreak.

Slitheringdead, I 100% agree with you. :) To everyone who is for culling snakes for color or temperament... if we were talking about puppies or kittens, would you think the same thing? Say elrojo was breeding puppies, and for two whole years he killed 100% of the babies because they were not the right color, or as babies were nippy and would take work to tame down. Not adult animals who's personalities have been confirmed, but actual babies. If your opinions differ in that situation, then why?
 
VickyChaiTea said:
To everyone who is for culling snakes for color or temperament... if we were talking about puppies or kittens, would you think the same thing? Say elrojo was breeding puppies, and for two whole years he killed 100% of the babies because they were not the right color, or as babies were nippy and would take work to tame down. Not adult animals who's personalities have been confirmed, but actual babies. If your opinions differ in that situation, then why?
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This kind of culling goes on in every kind of animal husbandry. Without it we wouldn't have all the varieties we have now. In breeding fancy goldfish, for example, as the fry grow there are culls frequently to thin down those not as vigorous and not colouring up well. Without the culling you would end up with thousands of fish that are just as much a potential pet, but no-one wants dull goldfish! If more dog breeders did cull out bad temperement and genetic defects perhaps you wouldn't have such phenomenas as 'cocker rage' and so on affecting dogs now
 
diamondlil said:
This kind of culling goes on in every kind of animal husbandry. Without it we wouldn't have all the varieties we have now. In breeding fancy goldfish, for example, as the fry grow there are culls frequently to thin down those not as vigorous and not colouring up well. Without the culling you would end up with thousands of fish that are just as much a potential pet, but no-one wants dull goldfish! If more dog breeders did cull out bad temperement and genetic defects perhaps you wouldn't have such phenomenas as 'cocker rage' and so on affecting dogs now
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Well said!

Sometimes culling is necessary for the betterment of the breed. Whatever breed it is. Dog, cat, snake, rat...
 
Cull out genetic defects? Maybe they should be breeding animals that can give their offspring defects in the first place. That seems like a better idea to me.

So your point is that breeding wouldn't be as practical if we didn't cull animals based on appearance? Or not as convenient for the person? I think that's a tad selfish. Yeah, maybe you will have to keep some sub-par looking snakes because no one wants to buy them but that's part of the responsibility you took on by bringing those animals into this world. And I have a hard time believing no one out there would EVER buy a plain looking goldfish. You're kind of saying that not one person on this earth would ever want one and every breeder would be overrun with ugly fish. Permanently.
 
diamondlil said:
This kind of culling goes on in every kind of animal husbandry. Without it we wouldn't have all the varieties we have now. In breeding fancy goldfish, for example, as the fry grow there are culls frequently to thin down those not as vigorous and not colouring up well. Without the culling you would end up with thousands of fish that are just as much a potential pet, but no-one wants dull goldfish! If more dog breeders did cull out bad temperement and genetic defects perhaps you wouldn't have such phenomenas as 'cocker rage' and so on affecting dogs now
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It's sad that this is true, but I don't agree with it!

Wane
 
I have for the most part avoided this thread because it is easy to get sucked into a debate.

Em Wright said:
Well said!

Sometimes culling is necessary for the betterment of the breed. Whatever breed it is. Dog, cat, snake, rat...
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Weeding out lesser desirables would benefit the industry as a whole, but does that make it right? Who does it benefit more? The individual specimen or the pockets of the person doing the breeding?

As I said in my previous post, I don't agree with the practice of culling because an animal may not be the "best" perceived representation in color or temperament. I can and do understand culling because of genetic on congenital defects, illness or reluctance to feed. Sadly, I have had to do it.

I just don't understand how a person can determine a snakes "personality" on such a small sample of it's life. Especially when they aren't domesticated in a sense that Dogs and Cats are. They still live by primordial instinct and react to everything around them with fear. Something that can be changed with time and handling.

I don't know. I don't and won't judge someone who does it, but I don't agree with it.

Wayne
 
Snakehead said:
This topic is very similar to abortion really! you either value the life you created or you don't! It's that simple.
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Except in the case of abortion, the woman (probably) didn't intentionally create the embryo, and kills it before it "hatches." With a non-desired snake morph, the breeder intended to create it, but when it wasn't the color the breeder was shooting for, the breeder killed a perfectly healthy baby, that had been hatched, for no reason other than it wasn't the right morph. The aborted human embryo is never self-supporting (in terms of blood supply, oxygen, etc., not taking care of itself) or self-aware.
 
VickyChaiTea said:
Cull out genetic defects? Maybe they should be breeding animals that can give their offspring defects in the first place. That seems like a better idea to me.
.
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Tell that to the respected breeders who knowingly breed from dogs with this terrible condition so they can win at shows
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm
Read this and the links
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1046614/BBC-drop-Crufts-unhealthy-freak-breeds.html
To me, responsible breeders have aims involving temperement and health and make sure by culling or by neutering unsuitable offspring that they really do have the interests of the animals they profess to love at heart. I've seen corns at the end of shows being sold off at £5. How many of those really end up in caring homes with owners who can afford veterinary care if needed as opposed to how many are treated as disposible and replaceable if they get ill?
 
Keep in mind that in the dog breeding business, culling doesn't necessary mean killing. If a puppy does not possess the traits that are consistent with it's breed, then the puppy is culled by neutering/spaying, so that it's genes cannot back into the gene pool. These puppies are then sold as pets (at a reduced price) and can still make wonderful companions. The decision to cull because of aggressive temperament requires more deliberation because a puppy needs adequate time for socialization, training, and development to ensure that there are non-correctable aggressive behavior. If the puppie's aggressive behavior is not correctable, then it can be culled by being humanely euthanized.
 
"If a puppy does not possess the traits that are consistent with it's breed, then the puppy is culled by neutering/spaying, so that it's genes cannot back into the gene pool."

You can't neuter a snake, and you can't keep it from being bred. Actually selling to a "pet home" is one of the fastest ways to get a snake breeding, in my experience. :/
 
slitheringdead said:
Keep in mind that in the dog breeding business, culling doesn't necessary mean killing. If a puppy does not possess the traits that are consistent with it's breed, then the puppy is culled by neutering/spaying, so that it's genes cannot back into the gene pool. These puppies are then sold as pets (at a reduced price) and can still make wonderful companions. The decision to cull because of aggressive temperament requires more deliberation because a puppy needs adequate time for socialization, training, and development to ensure that there are non-correctable aggressive behavior. If the puppie's aggressive behavior is not correctable, then it can be culled by being humanely euthanized.
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Yep, but for fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds, neutering isn't an option. Fancy rat and mouse breeders also cull rather than neuter, I expect fancy rabbit breeders do too, mostly. Culling is a fact of breeding, like it or not.
 
But speaking of snakes that are healthy, except for color, so what if they go to a pet home and get bred? I'm not advocating saving deformed snakes, but, again, find killing healthy hatchlings repugnant.
 
The parallel that i was trying to describe was that although the puppy was sub-standard according to the breed's standards (i'm sure there must be an official kennel club specification for what makes a golden retriever a golden retriever), the puppy can still be sold to a good home because there are people out there who don't care that the puppy's color is tan instead of gold. If the breeder can not find a good home for that sub-standard puppy, then i feel that the breeder is ethically obligated to keep the puppy that they produced. This is probably written in the code of ethics for dog breeders. I believe that snake breeders should follow a similar code of ethics! But i guess this is where the community differs in opinion.
 
slitheringdead said:
The parallel that i was trying to describe was that although the puppy was sub-standard according to the breed's standards (i'm sure there must be an official kennel club specification for what makes a golden retriever a golden retriever), the puppy can still be sold to a good home because there are people out there who don't care that the puppy's color is tan instead of gold. If the breeder can not find a good home for that sub-standard puppy, then i feel that the breeder is ethically obligated to keep the puppy that they produced. This is probably written in the code of ethics for dog breeders. I believe that snake breeders should follow a similar code of ethics! But i guess this is where the community differs in opinion.
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Dog breeder's code of ethics? Puppy mills, backyard breeders and people who ignore known genetic defects in order to get a chance at winning rossettes follow no code that could be called ethical, except in their own minds!
 
I know full well that dog breeders are deforming dogs into terrible caricatures of what the breeds used to be. I am wholeheartedly against that, and the intentional breeding of dogs who have genetic defects like hip dysplasia or seizures just so they can get good looking dogs.

That's not what we're talking about here anyway, we're talking about killing good healthy animals simply because their colors aren't nice enough, or their saddles aren't uniform enough.
 
diamondlil said:
Dog breeder's code of ethics? Puppy mills, backyard breeders and people who ignore known genetic defects in order to get a chance at winning rossettes follow no code that could be called ethical, except in their own minds!
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Just because a code of ethics is ignored or not enforced should not be an excuse for someone else to do the same.

And in terms of corn snake morphology/pedigree, is there a consensus on what makes an anery a pretty anery? In other words, who has the official authority to decide which anery is an award winning anery and which traits that every anery breeder should aspire for? Since snakes can't be neutered/spayed (is that for medical reasons or is it because it would be cost prohibitive?), then what is the harm in having that "sub-standard" anery's gene in the gene pool or a person potentially breeding that anery because they think is pretty, but isn't pretty in your eyes?
 
VickyChaiTea said:
That's not what we're talking about here anyway, we're talking about killing good healthy animals simply because their colors aren't nice enough, or their saddles aren't uniform enough.
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We are? I wasn't. I thought and hoped we were talking about reasons to breed or not breed corn snakes and information that might help new breeders. I choose to cull only deformed or non eaters, so do most breeders. But I really hate that this has turned into a witch hunt against people who cull for any other reason. They are trying to improve the bloodlines which benefits the hobby. They are putting their culled snakes back into the food chain. There is a finite number of "pet only" homes. As stated endless times already you can't spay or neuter the snakes.
 
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