Culling 'side product' hatchlings

Originally Posted by Blutengel

So you see no difference in ending a miserable life and ending a life worth living because it was born in the wrong clutch?

Do I see a difference? Yes, I do...which is why I opersonally would not do it at this point in my life.

That doesn't give me the right to judge someone else for making that decision for themselves.

I respect, understand, and appreciate the difficulty with which someone like Susan might make the decisions that she discussed. These are not the right decisions for me at this point, but only because I am so new to the breeding program that I currently have no plans beyond 1 or possibly 2 clutches over the next few years. Being overwhelmed is not a problem when I've chosen to severely limit my breeding program. How ever, I can still understand and respect another breeder for making those decisions for themselves. This would especially ring true with someone who was, like Susan pointed out, breeding hybrids, and a culling of any "pure looking" snakes is the only way to guarantee that there is NO future breeding potential and unscrupulous dealings made with THEIR stock.

There is another discussion going on right now regarding anerythristic "C" possibly being from hybrids/integrades. Rich is taking ALOT of flak from people(somewhere) about this, because it is ALL originating from his stock...that he sold many years ago. Is it his fault? Nope. Does he deserve a tinge on his reputation because of other people's doubts? Nope. Could it be that the opriginal snakes used to produce anery "C" were some sort of hybrid that looked pure enough to fool one of the best in the business? I'm sure it's a possibility.

Let's speak purely hypothetically for a moment. Just say that somewhere back a few years ago, some "Joe down the road" breeder starts playing around crossing different species of rat snakes with corn snakes, and "discovers" some extremely interesting results never before seen in corn snakes. The offspring LOOK like pure corns, to even "trained professionals", but the genetics are entirely new due to the crosses made. So this unscrupulous seller decides to market them as a brand new morph in the pantherophis gutattas line of snakes...even though they aren't. These things sell like hot cakes and are now found being crossed with every morph available in a mad rush to be the first to create something with these "new" recessives.

Flash forward 15 years...someone breeds some of these "new snakes", and gets offspring thoroughly unlike the rest, resembling the OTHER side of the early hybrid. What now? Now we know that it is a hybrid, but the hybridized blood has been so thoroughly distributed throughout the bloodlines of pure corns that it can never again be completely seperated out of at least several different varieties of "corn snake". Now everyone starts pitching a fit and ranting and raving about whomever they got THEIR snakes from because they are hybrids...

So yes...I can completely understand why someone with a reputation to protect would cull "pure looking" snakes from a hybrid project. I think it is a difficult decision to make for a breeder, but I also think it is an extremely responsible decision to make, as well.

Originally Posted by Susan

What guarantee do you have that any particular hatchling will have a life worth living? And what defines a life worth living?

I thought about that, but culling a hatchling that is not able to behave as it wants and should as a healthy corn, makes sure that one won't have a miserable life. The ones that are able to slither/climb/eat/poop and grow will at least have a reasonable chance to get the same level of decency in life as all others in good care.

I think it is ridiculous to cull animals just because some organisation decides their color does not fit the breeding standards. Any breeder should set aside money to neuter/spay the dogs in Susan's example and to sell them as pets to people who do not care about the breed anyway. Should the breeding of any breed or morph produce more 'trash bin' animals then breeders can handle, one should seriously reconsider breeding for this specific goal. Bringing life on this planet knowing you have to kill some, only for the pleasure of breeding what you think looks good, is not respectfull to animals IMO.

Just want to add my vote. Culling for health/medical reasons is acceptable, but other reasons I think are questionable at best. Personally, I feel if you can't handle the load, then you shouldn't take on the task. And I absolutely disagree with life or death being determined by the right look.

Originally Posted by Blutengel

I thought about that, but culling a hatchling that is not able to behave as it wants and should as a healthy corn, makes sure that one won't have a miserable life. The ones that are able to slither/climb/eat/poop and grow will at least have a reasonable chance to get the same level of decency in life as all others in good care.

I think it is ridiculous to cull animals just because some organisation decides their color does not fit the breeding standards. Any breeder should set aside money to neuter/spay the dogs in Susan's example and to sell them as pets to people who do not care about the breed anyway. Should the breeding of any breed or morph produce more 'trash bin' animals then breeders can handle, one should seriously reconsider breeding for this specific goal. Bringing life on this planet knowing you have to kill some, only for the pleasure of breeding what you think looks good, is not respectfull to animals IMO.

Blutengel--

I appreciate and respect your opinion as well. But that is what it is...an opinion, that needs to be made by each individual based on their own needs, desires, reputation, goals, stock and so many other variables that it is nearly impossible to reach even a semblence of a "concession".

There are so many "what if" questions when it comes to breeding of ANY animal, that, to me, it seems fairly ludicrous for anyone to get involved with breeding WITHOUT considering their options for euthanizing, and even for one person to try and "dictate" what is right and wrong with how others choose to do it.

I understand a love and respect for the animals. But I also understand that in some instances, this same love and respect for the animals will translate into necessary culling, whether to prevent "contamination" from unscrupulous dealers or to prevent a life of pain and misery. IMO...both of these are justifiable means.

Originally Posted by tyflier

Do I see a difference? Yes, I do...which is why I opersonally would not do it at this point in my life.

That doesn't give me the right to judge someone else for making that decision for themselves.

I respect, understand, and appreciate the difficulty with which someone like Susan might make the decisions that she discussed. These are not the right decisions for me at this point, but only because I am so new to the breeding program that I currently have no plans beyond 1 or possibly 2 clutches over the next few years. Being overwhelmed is not a problem when I've chosen to severely limit my breeding program. How ever, I can still understand and respect another breeder for making those decisions for themselves. This would especially ring true with someone who was, like Susan pointed out, breeding hybrids, and a culling of any "pure looking" snakes is the only way to guarantee that there is NO future breeding potential and unscrupulous dealings made with THEIR stock.

There is another discussion going on right now regarding anerythristic "C" possibly being from hybrids/integrades. Rich is taking ALOT of flak from people(somewhere) about this, because it is ALL originating from his stock...that he sold many years ago. Is it his fault? Nope. Does he deserve a tinge on his reputation because of other people's doubts? Nope. Could it be that the opriginal snakes used to produce anery "C" were some sort of hybrid that looked pure enough to fool one of the best in the business? I'm sure it's a possibility.

Let's speak purely hypothetically for a moment. Just say that somewhere back a few years ago, some "Joe down the road" breeder starts playing around crossing different species of rat snakes with corn snakes, and "discovers" some extremely interesting results never before seen in corn snakes. The offspring LOOK like pure corns, to even "trained professionals", but the genetics are entirely new due to the crosses made. So this unscrupulous seller decides to market them as a brand new morph in the pantherophis gutattas line of snakes...even though they aren't. These things sell like hot cakes and are now found being crossed with every morph available in a mad rush to be the first to create something with these "new" recessives.

Flash forward 15 years...someone breeds some of these "new snakes", and gets offspring thoroughly unlike the rest, resembling the OTHER side of the early hybrid. What now? Now we know that it is a hybrid, but the hybridized blood has been so thoroughly distributed throughout the bloodlines of pure corns that it can never again be completely seperated out of at least several different varieties of "corn snake". Now everyone starts pitching a fit and ranting and raving about whomever they got THEIR snakes from because they are hybrids...

So yes...I can completely understand why someone with a reputation to protect would cull "pure looking" snakes from a hybrid project. I think it is a difficult decision to make for a breeder, but I also think it is an extremely responsible decision to make, as well.

Any hybrid is a threat to the pure market, drawing a line culling pure looking hybrids is covering the risk with a layer of smoke. If you are a purist, you do not breed hybrids, if you are not and respect the life you brought you shoudl not just cull it for your own reputation. I know it sounds harsh, but to be honest I am a bit said about less people sharing my opinion on this, even though I am rational by nature.

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

Originally Posted by tyflier

Blutengel--

I appreciate and respect your opinion as well. But that is what it is...an opinion, that needs to be made by each individual based on their own needs, desires, reputation, goals, stock and so many other variables that it is nearly impossible to reach even a semblence of a "concession".

There are so many "what if" questions when it comes to breeding of ANY animal, that, to me, it seems fairly ludicrous for anyone to get involved with breeding WITHOUT considering their options for euthanizing, and even for one person to try and "dictate" what is right and wrong with how others choose to do it.

I understand a love and respect for the animals. But I also understand that in some instances, this same love and respect for the animals will translate into necessary culling, whether to prevent "contamination" from unscrupulous dealers or to prevent a life of pain and misery. IMO...both of these are justifiable means.

I think we just have a very strong difference in opinion regarding what 'necessary' means regarding this subject.

I hope I misunderstood you meant me when talking about 'dictating'? Just to be sure...

Further I do not judge people for making other choices then I would regarding this subject, but I do judge the activity of cullign hatchlings for reasons I do not agree on. I hope people see the difference and my honesty/sincerity in this.

Originally Posted by Susan

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

It's completely wrong, and I think just adds to the right to life (or however you want to call it) side of the debate.

And now I'll start the pool on the "they're not humans so they're less than us" post at within 10 minutes.

Originally Posted by Susan

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

No worries broadening the subject... but are you serious in saying; hey, if China culls redundant humen, we can breed and then cull redundant animals since we are obviously just not able to pay respect to life anyway?

If you really want to look at the ethics of culling perhaps we should first be looking at the ethics of breeding. What right do we have to breed these animals? What right do we have to bring life onto this planet just because we want to produce a pretty color or pattern? These animals have no biologic imperative to be here. We have no need for them - we have them because we want them and like them. Does that make it right to breed them, let alone own a wild animal?

So if we can somehow bypass the ethics of breeding and owning wild animals then we have no right to judge someone based on their culling practices. Until you can ethically justify breeding these animals you really have no place arguing the ethics of culling.


Joanna