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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Stargazing
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Old 09-30-2010, 08:44 AM   #1
Wilko92
Exclamation Stargazing

Q: What is Stargazing?
A: It is a recessive gene that causes neurological problems in cornsnakes - it affects a cornsnake's sense of balance and coordination. It is also known simply as "SG". (Though the term "Stargazing" is also used to describe a snake's lack of balance or odd behaviour which is caused through genuine illness and not from the Stargazing gene)

Q: What are the signs of Stargazing?
A: Homo Stargazers (cornsnakes with 2 Stargazer genes) move fine on flat surfaces, but once they raise their head off the surface, they swing their heads about and move wildly. They may also lay with their head in the air looking up at nothing. If flipped onto their back it takes them a few moments to realise this and right themselves. They also have problems feeding as the more excited/agitated they become, the more uncoordinated their movements are. Otherwise these snakes are healthy and mentally fine - they still eat, shed and poo like any other cornsnake.
Het Stargazers will show no visible signs of carrying the Stargazing gene.

Q: Where did it come from?
A: It was first noted to crop up sporadically in an Okeetee line here and there and presumed to be incubational stress or something at first. It became apparent after some years of seeing these show up that the condition appeared to have a heritable cause. Review of the records did indeed show a definite pattern to certain individuals producing the effect, a pattern of recessive gene inheritance.
The Stargazing gene was really discovered in the year 2000 in America, in the first Sunkissed snakes. The breeder claimed that more than 50% of the Sunkissed carried the Stargazer gene.

Q: What morphs does it occur in?
Q: Through breedings back and forth with Sunkissed projects and Sunkissed snakes, Sunkissed has a higher chance of producing Stargazing snakes as the original gene pool for Sunkissed was quite small. But any snake with a Sunkissed decendant has a chance of carrying Stargazing, so Stargazing has spread to many other morphs. Without knowing the exact parentage of your snake, there is a chance of it being het Stargazing. Also, any snake from the original producer of Sunkissed snakes (Rich) has a high chance of being het Stargazer as he outcrossed a lot of his snakes.

Q: How can I find out if my corn snake is het Stargazing?
A: If you know your snake's pedigree, and read up on who was breeding what, you can estimate how likely it is for older snakes to be carrying Stargazing.
With snakes that you don't know the pedigree of (back to 2000), you'd have to breed your cornsnake with a Stargazing cornsnake. This may seem wrong, breeding FROM a Stargazing cornsnake, but Stargazers have a PAIR of Stargazing genes. This means you can be 100% sure that the clutch outcome (from a large clutch) proves that the cornsnake being bred to the Stargazer is clear or het Stargazer.
Here's a couple of punnet squares to explain this : "s" is 1 Stargazing gene and "S" is 1 normal gene.

Stargazer (ss) x Normal (SS)

.....s | s
S | Ss Ss
S | Ss Ss

Because all of the clutch is het Stargazer, none of them will show signs of Stargazer.

Stargazer (ss) x Het Stargazer (Ss)

.....s | s
S | SS SS
s | Ss Ss

50% of the clutch will be homo Stargazer, and so will show signs of being Stargazer. The odds are 50% per egg, so the chances are good that you would get Stargazers from a Homo Stargazer x Het Stargazer clutch.

A Het Stargazer (Ss) x Het Stargazer (Ss) clutch has much slimmer odds though ...

.....S | s
S | SS Ss
s | Ss ss

There's a 25% chance per egg of a homo Stargazer, so only a quarter of the clutch should be visual Stargazers. 50% chance of het Stargazer, and a 25% chance of Stargazer free snakes.

Q: What if I've already found Stargazers in a clutch?
A: This means both parents are het Stargazing.

Q: What happens to the offspring of testings?
A: When testing for Stargazing, there are several things that can be done with the offspring. Whole clutches can be killed, even if there is a chance of clean snakes. Stargazing snakes can kept in the collection to test breed with other snakes. Possible clear snakes can be kept to breed when they are mature enough, to prove that they are clear. This way the line can still continue - just without the Stargazing gene.
If offspring are sold on without informing the new owner of it's possible Stargazer status, it will continue to spread when these snakes are then bred from in future.

Q: Why is it important to get rid of Stargazing?
A: It's best for cornsnakes, and the hobby as a whole. Especially as it is proven to be a simple recessive gene, so it can be removed from the hobby with relative ease (compared to the neurological problems which occur in royal pythons and carpet pythons), if people are honest and open about this gene instead of ignoring it.
Several breeders are already in the processes of testing their lines to clear them of Stargazing, with some putting the priority on Sunkissed lines and Sunkissed projects. There is expected to be a premium on the cost of snakes from clean lines, to encourage people to keep them clean.

Hope this helps / is useful and informative
 
Old 09-30-2010, 09:57 AM   #2
mike17l
Did you write all that? or did you copy and past that? Just curious.

On stargazing, who cares. Feed off the ones that are stargazing. Simple as that. It does not hurt the animal in any way if it carries (het) the gene. So, as long as you are getting rid of and not selling the actual stargazers (homo), who cares.
 
Old 09-30-2010, 09:58 AM   #3
Drewby07
I thought Kathy Love was the originator of the Sunkissed morph, not Rich....
 
Old 09-30-2010, 10:09 AM   #4
mike17l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilko92 View Post
Also, any snake from the original producer of Sunkissed snakes (Rich) has a high chance of being het Stargazer as he outcrossed a lot of his snakes.
An intentional attempt to slander the owner of this site? sure looks like it to me.
 
Old 09-30-2010, 10:12 AM   #5
Drewby07
Who knows....this while thread is pretty random....
 
Old 09-30-2010, 10:12 AM   #6
Wilko92
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
Did you write all that? or did you copy and past that? Just curious.

On stargazing, who cares. Feed off the ones that are stargazing. Simple as that. It does not hurt the animal in any way if it carries (het) the gene. So, as long as you are getting rid of and not selling the actual stargazers (homo), who cares.
I spent quite a while typing that, might have ended up borrowing a couple of phrasings and sentences from other sources though.

IMO, seeing as it's a recessive gene, why not make a little effort now to make sure homo Stargazers don't crop up? Bit of effort breeding it out and then you'd never have to worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewby07 View Post
I thought Kathy Love was the originator of the Sunkissed morph, not Rich....
Ah my bad, I was looking through a couple of websites for information and none of them were completely clear about who the originator was for the Sunkissed morph. I think Rich had one of the largest Sunkissed projects but Kathy originally discovered it. If I could I'd edit the post to "The Stargazing gene was really discovered in the year 2000 in America, in Sunkissed snakes. The breeder claimed that more than 50% of the Sunkissed carried the Stargazer gene"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike17l View Post
An intentional attempt to slander the owner of this site? sure looks like it to me.
And no it was not.
 
Old 09-30-2010, 10:22 AM   #7
Wilko92
It is a bit random but I just thought it'd be good to have some information on Stargazing in a thread, and hence why its a bit long as I tried to make it as accurate as I could. I read and re-read it several times before posting it, but inevitably I missed a couple of things and could have worded them differently.
I didn't post it to point fingers, (plus trying to slander the owner of the site seems a bit silly doesn't it?) I just posted it to inform people / new owners who didn't know about it.
 
Old 09-30-2010, 12:36 PM   #8
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Hey, Wilko, if you purchase an annual membership, you can edit your posts pretty much at will :-). As well as the benefits to you (knowing you're doing something good for the site, the ability to edit, and to occasionally get contributing member discounts, as well as access to a contributing member forum area, here), you are also helping to support one of the best snake sites out there. And it only costs $25! Chump change, imho.
 
Old 09-30-2010, 01:28 PM   #9
Wilko92
Good to know, thank you but I frequent UK/EU forums more as I live in the UK
 
Old 09-30-2010, 06:26 PM   #10
Susan
Since there is some mis-information about the origins of the Sunkissed morph, this is from Rich's SerpenCo site (2008 "edition"):

Quote:
Sunkissed Corn Snake

These are based on the type 'B' Hypomelanism that Kathy Love came up with. It has also been recently determined that this hypomelanism is CUMULATIVE with the type 'A' Hypomelanism which can give you DOUBLE BRIGHT looking animals when they are homozygous for both Hypo genes. Presents some VERY interesting possibilities!!

These were originally marketed by Kathy Love as Hypomelanistic Okeetees years ago. Subsequent experimentation discovered that this line of Hypomelanism was incompatible with the "standard" Hypomelanism that we had previously been working with. Consequently, there was a bit of concern about the immense amount of confusion that could result by having two separate and distinct lines of "Hypomelanistic Okeetee" floating around in the marketplace that when bred together would produce only normal colored Okeetees, and not hypos. So this type "B" Hypomelanistic line was simply renamed to "Sunkissed".
To single out SerpenCo stock as having the greater possibility of being het stargazer is incorrect.
 

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