Fire pair, het Charcoal, Cayenne

Originally Posted by DuxorW

Yeah, I think diffusion (and all the things that might be tagging along with it in bloodreds) makes things tricky, as it seems to increase reds all by itself. What a headache!

Haha! It is! But at the same time, I do love learning about these things, especially first hand.

I have been able to spot RF in hatchlings, fairly easily. I spotted something different in Cinaed (the RF Tessera het Fire), and it proved out to be RF.
His babies were relatively easy to spot the RF right off the bat.
I didn't have any Fires in that clutch, it was only Normals and Amels, with Tessera and RF thrown in. LOL

It's cool that I was able to incite such an interesting and educational conversation! Too bad I wasn't able to contribute much to it. So I guess the questions are:

1. Was John's Cayenne Fire RF or RC?
2. Are my pair carrying either of these? (Depends on above?)
3. Does the Charcoal gene cancel all red, including that brought on by RF/RC?
4. Is anyone going to buy them?

Thanks for the discussion! It's interesting, and it keeps my ad at the top!

Jim

1) Cayenne fires are Red Factor fires.
2) I'm no expert, but they look too orange to me? Were they sold to you as cayenne fires?
3) Don at South Mountain Reptiles should know, since he made RF blizzards. The thing about Don is he is EXCELLENT at responding to emails at length. If you learn anything let us know!
4) I hope so!

Originally Posted by DuxorW

1) Cayenne fires are Red Factor fires.
2) I'm no expert, but they look too orange to me? Were they sold to you as cayenne fires?
3) Don at South Mountain Reptiles should know, since he made RF blizzards. The thing about Don is he is EXCELLENT at responding to emails at length. If you learn anything let us know!
4) I hope so!

I just saw this thread and sorry I didn't get in here sooner. They were sold to him as products of a cayenne fire male (SMR line) to a whiteout female. Don also has a pair from this clutch and he told me today that one of his is as red as his cayennes. Don and I agree that even with only one parent being RF (cayenne fire) part of the babies will express the cayenne red. I do think this is a great project and would be a great one to continue. I am happy to show pics of the parents if someone wanted.
John

I also emailed Don a link to this thread and invited him to comment.

Originally Posted by backafter30

I also emailed Don a link to this thread and invited him to comment.

I'm sorry your for sale ad has turned into a genetics thread.
John

Not at all! This is interesting and educational! I'm just trying to keep my hobby from growing too big, too fast, and I've got lots of projects coming up in the next few years. I'm willing to sell these, not dying to do so.

Originally Posted by backafter30

It's cool that I was able to incite such an interesting and educational conversation! Too bad I wasn't able to contribute much to it. So I guess the questions are:

1. Was John's Cayenne Fire RF or RC?
2. Are my pair carrying either of these? (Depends on above?)
3. Does the Charcoal gene cancel all red, including that brought on by RF/RC?
4. Is anyone going to buy them?

Thanks for the discussion! It's interesting, and it keeps my ad at the top!

Jim

Jim, I know that John has more than one Cayenne animals, and if I am correct, it is RF that makes them Cayenne vs Fire.
It's hard to say, I don't know that anyone can answer that right now. If you could post progression pics for the remainder of the time you have them (maybe after each shed) we can compare to your first pics and see if we can tell.
I'm not sure about the Charcoal gene canceling out the red, I haven't worked that gene in relation to RF.While they are nice snakes, no doubt, I am reducing my numbers because of a reoccuring back injury.

Originally Posted by zorro

I just saw this thread and sorry I didn't get in here sooner. They were sold to him as products of a cayenne fire male (SMR line) to a whiteout female. Don also has a pair from this clutch and he told me today that one of his is as red as his cayennes. Don and I agree that even with only one parent being RF (cayenne fire) part of the babies will express the cayenne red. I do think this is a great project and would be a great one to continue. I am happy to show pics of the parents if someone wanted.
John

Thanks for your input John!
I think this gene has much to explore, and I hope we are able to get some answers. It is a fun gene, the little I know about it.

Poppy (Marsha Matthews) came up with the name Cayenne to distinguish Fires possessing the additional mutation, Red Mask (aka: Red Factor) from regular Amel Bloodreds (Fires). RM is dominant to wild-type, so you can see more red in visual hets (Fires that have only one chromosal copy of the RM mutation) than regular Fires not possessing the gene, but the super-form (Homozygotes) are spectacular. Those are the Fires that possess both copies of the RM gene mutation. They are sometimes called Super Cayenne Fires. The most distinguished examples from our two lines are the SMR Red Mask line and the South African line.

The RM gene (actually discovered by Poppy in my Sunglow Motleys) was in that line since I began producing them back in the mid 1990s, but I didn't recognize it. I just knew that my Sun Motleys were more intensely colored than most Amel Motleys, but didn't know why. It took years before Poppy told me that the reason some are shockingly colored (Super-forms) were even better than most of mine was that they inherited both copies of the dominantly-inherited RM mutation. But the best demonstration of it is in my SMR Fires, that were always redder than anyone else's. I didn't know why until breeding trials revealed that RM was the reason.

Here is an example of a Classic Sun Motley (Visual Het) with a Super Sun Motley, lower-most in the pic. I'll dig up a pic that demonstrates the color distinction between Fire and Cayenne Fire.

Thanks Don! What do you think about the fires for sale in this ad, do they look het cayenne? When you made RF blizzards, how did RF manifest in them?