-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
Is it ok to house two snakes together?
- Thread starter beethoven
- Start date
Annihilation-
New member
alright, time to reply...for starters...if you want to compare behavior...look at snakes and cats...both are solitary animals. so its a good comparison...cats spend over 16 hours a day sleeping...the only time they bother to wake up is when they want to eat, go to the bathroom, move around, ect. what does a snake do all day? more so for this argument, a corn snake...it sleeps all day, and only moves for the listed reasons. the only reason a cat could be considered one step above a snake is in the fact that it has useable vocal cords and ears, other than that their behavior is the same...so you really have no argument there...what does a cat do that is so much smarter than a snake? i really cant think of a single thing. quite honestly i cant see your points.
tell me this...it has been noted by almost anyone who pays attention to their snakes and has owned two or more that each snake shows its own individual personality...if as you say "You don't find much better examples of creatures of pure instinct than snakes" is true, then how is this possible? instinct stays the same for most animals, therefor if they are purely instinct, then they should all act the same. individual personalities, or variations in behavior patterns, since you want to use the big terms lol (not being a smarta--) :grin01: show a thought process higher than just instinct. if you want an example of pure instinct look at ants. their whole life is under control of instinct from birth to death. personaly to me, the demonstration of a personalitly indicates thought, thought indicates a slight, not vast, but slight understanding of the world around the animal. i understand that science has shown a lacking in some areas of the brain in comparison to mamals. however a snakes brain is much like that of a bird. true, some birds are quite unintelligent, but then there are others that are very smart and can show a deep thought process.
and no, i havent owned many snakes, nor dogs nor cats. and no, i dont have a documented education in these fields...but that dosent mean that i am wrong not does it mean that i am right. my conclutions are drawn from my own personal observations of animals and how they interact with the world around them, humans included. to me it would seem to make more logic that if you want to understand an animal, you shouldnt look into its brain to see what it has and dosent have, you should watch it to see how it acts...actions show alot more to me than a cat scan of a brain. you can take scans from two different people and compare them and the brains will be almost identical, yet each person can be totaly different. and to be quite honest i think many humans act more on instinct then people belive...watching the social interactions between people, and comparing them to that of apes is quite a stunny comparison, there are more things in common than different. dont think just because you can read and write and do math problems that you are the most powerful thing on the planet. quite honestly its our intelligence that will be our downfall.
read this
Marc: yes, I agree that we probably do have less instinct, but I think that's because of our more evolved self. I think we've sort of stamped out some instincts with more logical reason
Marc: ..which ironically is our downfall
Carol: very true
Carol: i think we are overconfident in our brains
Carol: "dumber" beings are more content with life, kill themselves less often, don't have stress unless they are escaping being eaten, aren't trying to destroy the world, and haven't evolved ways to destroy each other
Carol: i think they are leagues ahead of us
Carol: they don't try to figure out life after death...they live for the now
Carol: they don't worry about careers and money, so therefore there little, if ANY corruption
Carol: they are MUCH better parents, for their ONLY goal is to raise their children (depending on the species)
Marc: and so ignorance is bliss
Carol: indeed
Marc: I definitely wish I was dumb.. to be honest
Carol: this is true with those who are mentally retarded
Marc: they live in heaven
Carol: everyone feels so bad for the "retarded" kid....but the "retarded" kid feels absolutely fine
Carol: in a manner
Carol: it's like that with most mental diseases and such....if the person with the disease doesn't know they have it, they are perfectly fine....it's only when they know something is wrong that they distress
Carol: to themselves, they are normal
Marc: the only way ignorant people (or retarded) can hurt is that they don't understand and the more intellegent people are left with the more complicated issues of life
Marc: yep
Carol: yea
Carol: the curse of intelligence
Carol: you know something i am beginning to wonder?
Marc: agreed. what?
Carol: hang on....i'm trying to bring my thoughts into something coherant..one sec
Carol: well...it's like, we speak of how those who are less intelligent are "ignorant" (ignorance is bliss)...and you mentioned how those with intelligence are left with the "more complicated issues in life"
Marc: lol I know what you mean
Carol: it seems to me like the intelligent are the ones making the problems for themselves
Carol: maybe the intelligent are the truly ignorant
Marc: a true paradox, but I see what you mean.
Carol: i'm glad...cuz i wasn't sure how else to explain that
Carol: lol
Marc: it's because we have the capacity to understand complex issues that require more than just physical work to solve
Carol: but maybe there are no complex issues, marc
Carol: maybe we are making them for ourselves
Marc: exactly
Marc: evolution is at it again!
Carol: lol
Marc: a true life tragedy
Carol: the human race is a tragedy
Carol: we have no end but destruction....whether destruction by the destroyers.....or destruction by destroying the destroyers who make up most of our species
Marc: it's ironic cause we're very intelligent, yet we don't see the grand point of things.. but that's the whole question, isn't it?
Marc: yep
Carol: indeed
Marc: that's what we strive to solve...yet with knowledge comes suffering. A true fact.
Carol: maybe our problem is we are always trying to FIND a grand point of things....cuz we can't quite wrap our heads around the idea that maybe there IS no point...
Marc: hm. but that's the whole question that may remained unsolved... so what's the point of trying?
Carol: to make our own point...
Carol: holy crap
Carol: marc, i think that might be the "meaning of life"....to make it have a meaning!
♦ In other words, folks...what I'm saying is that perhaps one of humanity's many problems is that we try to find a point in everything. Perhaps the meaning of our lives (besides procreation) is to make our lives have a point, when they would otherwise have none. ♦
tell me this...it has been noted by almost anyone who pays attention to their snakes and has owned two or more that each snake shows its own individual personality...if as you say "You don't find much better examples of creatures of pure instinct than snakes" is true, then how is this possible? instinct stays the same for most animals, therefor if they are purely instinct, then they should all act the same. individual personalities, or variations in behavior patterns, since you want to use the big terms lol (not being a smarta--) :grin01: show a thought process higher than just instinct. if you want an example of pure instinct look at ants. their whole life is under control of instinct from birth to death. personaly to me, the demonstration of a personalitly indicates thought, thought indicates a slight, not vast, but slight understanding of the world around the animal. i understand that science has shown a lacking in some areas of the brain in comparison to mamals. however a snakes brain is much like that of a bird. true, some birds are quite unintelligent, but then there are others that are very smart and can show a deep thought process.
and no, i havent owned many snakes, nor dogs nor cats. and no, i dont have a documented education in these fields...but that dosent mean that i am wrong not does it mean that i am right. my conclutions are drawn from my own personal observations of animals and how they interact with the world around them, humans included. to me it would seem to make more logic that if you want to understand an animal, you shouldnt look into its brain to see what it has and dosent have, you should watch it to see how it acts...actions show alot more to me than a cat scan of a brain. you can take scans from two different people and compare them and the brains will be almost identical, yet each person can be totaly different. and to be quite honest i think many humans act more on instinct then people belive...watching the social interactions between people, and comparing them to that of apes is quite a stunny comparison, there are more things in common than different. dont think just because you can read and write and do math problems that you are the most powerful thing on the planet. quite honestly its our intelligence that will be our downfall.
read this
Marc: yes, I agree that we probably do have less instinct, but I think that's because of our more evolved self. I think we've sort of stamped out some instincts with more logical reason
Marc: ..which ironically is our downfall
Carol: very true
Carol: i think we are overconfident in our brains
Carol: "dumber" beings are more content with life, kill themselves less often, don't have stress unless they are escaping being eaten, aren't trying to destroy the world, and haven't evolved ways to destroy each other
Carol: i think they are leagues ahead of us
Carol: they don't try to figure out life after death...they live for the now
Carol: they don't worry about careers and money, so therefore there little, if ANY corruption
Carol: they are MUCH better parents, for their ONLY goal is to raise their children (depending on the species)
Marc: and so ignorance is bliss
Carol: indeed
Marc: I definitely wish I was dumb.. to be honest
Carol: this is true with those who are mentally retarded
Marc: they live in heaven
Carol: everyone feels so bad for the "retarded" kid....but the "retarded" kid feels absolutely fine
Carol: in a manner
Carol: it's like that with most mental diseases and such....if the person with the disease doesn't know they have it, they are perfectly fine....it's only when they know something is wrong that they distress
Carol: to themselves, they are normal
Marc: the only way ignorant people (or retarded) can hurt is that they don't understand and the more intellegent people are left with the more complicated issues of life
Marc: yep
Carol: yea
Carol: the curse of intelligence
Carol: you know something i am beginning to wonder?
Marc: agreed. what?
Carol: hang on....i'm trying to bring my thoughts into something coherant..one sec
Carol: well...it's like, we speak of how those who are less intelligent are "ignorant" (ignorance is bliss)...and you mentioned how those with intelligence are left with the "more complicated issues in life"
Marc: lol I know what you mean
Carol: it seems to me like the intelligent are the ones making the problems for themselves
Carol: maybe the intelligent are the truly ignorant
Marc: a true paradox, but I see what you mean.
Carol: i'm glad...cuz i wasn't sure how else to explain that
Carol: lol
Marc: it's because we have the capacity to understand complex issues that require more than just physical work to solve
Carol: but maybe there are no complex issues, marc
Carol: maybe we are making them for ourselves
Marc: exactly
Marc: evolution is at it again!
Carol: lol
Marc: a true life tragedy
Carol: the human race is a tragedy
Carol: we have no end but destruction....whether destruction by the destroyers.....or destruction by destroying the destroyers who make up most of our species
Marc: it's ironic cause we're very intelligent, yet we don't see the grand point of things.. but that's the whole question, isn't it?
Marc: yep
Carol: indeed
Marc: that's what we strive to solve...yet with knowledge comes suffering. A true fact.
Carol: maybe our problem is we are always trying to FIND a grand point of things....cuz we can't quite wrap our heads around the idea that maybe there IS no point...
Marc: hm. but that's the whole question that may remained unsolved... so what's the point of trying?
Carol: to make our own point...
Carol: holy crap
Carol: marc, i think that might be the "meaning of life"....to make it have a meaning!
♦ In other words, folks...what I'm saying is that perhaps one of humanity's many problems is that we try to find a point in everything. Perhaps the meaning of our lives (besides procreation) is to make our lives have a point, when they would otherwise have none. ♦
Annihilation-
New member
and yes, i know you may be thinking that conversation is somewhat contridictive of what im saying, but really is not...some intelligence is good, but when you begin to overthink the world and inflate your ego, thats when things get bad...case and point - our world today.
animals have been on this plant and kept it running without a hitch for millions of years, we have cause more havoc and destruction in the past 500 years than has been caused in the past 500 million...
animals have been on this plant and kept it running without a hitch for millions of years, we have cause more havoc and destruction in the past 500 years than has been caused in the past 500 million...
Corny Noob
Proud Momma
And suddenly we're having an exostential conversation about the meaning of life.
THIS TOPIC IS TOO COMPLIACTED.
Snakes: snakes don't like other snakes, unless they're horny rawr.
In all this time no one has ever been able to present a reason why the snakes SHOULD be housed together other than our own desire to force anthropomorphic "lonely" feelings on them, do it cause space/money needs to be saved or because they looked cool.
THATS IT END OF STORY. NO BIGGER MEANING ABOUT LIFE TO BE FOUND HERE
lulz I amuse myself sometimes.
THIS TOPIC IS TOO COMPLIACTED.
Snakes: snakes don't like other snakes, unless they're horny rawr.
In all this time no one has ever been able to present a reason why the snakes SHOULD be housed together other than our own desire to force anthropomorphic "lonely" feelings on them, do it cause space/money needs to be saved or because they looked cool.
THATS IT END OF STORY. NO BIGGER MEANING ABOUT LIFE TO BE FOUND HERE
lulz I amuse myself sometimes.
Annihilation-
New member
lol, you amuse me as well...*sigh* yea...i guess just let this die... :grin01:
Roy Munson
New member
This is laughable. I have no argument? This is quite an arrogant statement coming from someone who demonstrates zero knowledge of even the framework around which this discussion could take place. Why would you compare snakes and cats? Why is a cat "one step above" a snake? Do you know why cats are smarter than snakes? Because they have MORE COMPLEX BRAINS. They have areas of their brains that don't even exist in snakes. Do you know why humans are smarter than cats? Bingo! If you think that cats' and snakes' behavior are identical except for vocalization and hearing, then you only prove that you don't much about either type of animal.Annihilation- said:
Humans like to anthropomorphize (look it up). I've owned hundreds of snakes and I tell you that they do not have individual "personalities". People apply the term to snakes for two reasons: 1) They're ignorant; 2) It's easier than describing what's really going on. Some of my snakes are mellow, others are aggressive. Do you know why? It's because threat assessment is a critical instinct for survival. The ones that don't instictively consider me to be a threat are mellow. If you want to call that personality, go ahead, but it is not.
Ok, I'll go along with this, but you know what? Animals that rely almost entirely on instinct (e.g.; snakes) DO act very similar. Animals with more advanced brains (i.e., higher cognitive function) rely less on instinct alone, and they display greater behavioral differences between individuals.
Birds are not capable of deep thought, unless your definition of deep thought is different from mine. You say that demonstration of personality indicates thought, and I say that this doesn't matter if you're mis-applying the term "personality". You give me some "personality" traits that you think snakes possess, and I'll explain to you why these are nothing more than non-thinking, instinctive response.
Ok, so you're admitting that you have observed these animals less than I have. So why are you relying on your conclusions and dismissing mine? My "sample size" is much greater than yours. If you spent time with your Uncle Pete's pet chimp, are you going to assume that your conclusions about chimp behavior are as valid as Jane Goodall's?
I don't know what "making logic" means. How many snake cat-scans do you think I've seen? I've watched a lot more snakes than you have, and I don't need a cat scan to tell me that they are creatures of nearly pure instinct. They're practically bio-robots in my opinion.
Maybe to YOU. But a neurologist might be able to point out differences even in identical twins. Don't let your assumptions about things you know very little about obstruct your ability to think critically about these things.
You again demonstrate that you don't really know what you're talking about. Sorry to put it so bluntly. Non-human apes are highly intelligent animals, and they share a relatively recent common ancestor with us. It's not surprising that we are behaviorally similar to them. Apes have evolved high cognitive function, reducing our reliance on instinct.
No offense, but this conversation you posted is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from two teenagers who are halfway through a bag of weed and a 30-pack. It's the one that comes right after the "what if what I see as blue is red to you?" conversation is played out. It's hardly insightful.
After all this, THAT'S what you're trying to say? What the heck does that psychobabble have to do with a snake's cognitive abilities?
Corny Noob
Proud Momma
Poor Dean, spent so much time coming up with an intelligent response when all I had to do was talk about horny snakes and talk in caps.
Roy Munson
New member
:roflmao: You know, Jenn, I was a little mad when I got done with all that and then I read this:Corny Noob said:
It's so simple, so true, and so succinct.
Annihilation-
New member
*sigh* well...i tried to argue it...but really i guess there is no arguing it...i honestly do belive that most animals, not just reptiles are a bit smarter than precived, though others obviously may not. i suppose that is how most things are, no one can see things the same way. i guess since there is no real way to prove anything of this side of the debate then there is no use trying. i suppose its better left that way anyway
Duff
New member
I'm all for individual housing, but can we back off the cannibalism risk a bit. Seriously, every case I've heard of is directly related to poor feeding practices. The recent pic and story that was posted, I asked what the circumstances were, and the OP there never responded. Based on the story and pic, I'm willing to bet it's because he was group feeding (which puts the incident on him, not the snake). Corns are not cannibalistic, they are opportunistic. This is just a pet-peeve of mine that cannibalism keeps being used as the biggest risk, when it's really more likely your corn will be struck by lighting. Especially if you follow safe and responsible feeding practices with your hatchlings.dr73 said:
And on another note, since you've uncovered the real meaning of life, Annihilation, I shall begin construction of the Church of Annihilation. Can you send me a few pics so I can also get started on the big bronze and gold statues for worship?
Corny Noob
Proud Momma
Annihilation- said:
Lies I already tapped into the secret of corn intelligence and you know it :grin01:
Annihilation-
New member
Duff said:And on another note, since you've uncovered the real meaning of life, Annihilation, I shall begin construction of the Church of Annihilation. Can you send me a few pics so I can also get started on the big bronze and gold statues for worship?
:grin01: lol, thats a conversation that one of my friends and her friend had...i rather like it personalty lol
and sure ^^ ill post pics sometime next century- asap
dr73
New member
You have seen pics of corns that ate other corns right you said so in your post. Now show me a pic of a corn that was struck by lightning. Do you have a pic? It may be a pet peev of your but cannibalism does happen. So.............. and as far as Annihilation goes she is 19. I and I am sure everyone here new everything at 19. She will not listen to the facts. Maybe when she is 30 she will make a post and tell use just how wrong she was.Duff said:I'm all for individual housing, but can we back off the cannibalism risk a bit. Seriously, every case I've heard of is directly related to poor feeding practices. The recent pic and story that was posted, I asked what the circumstances were, and the OP there never responded. Based on the story and pic, I'm willing to bet it's because he was group feeding (which puts the incident on him, not the snake). Corns are not cannibalistic, they are opportunistic. This is just a pet-peeve of mine that cannibalism keeps being used as the biggest risk, when it's really more likely your corn will be struck by lighting. Especially if you follow safe and responsible feeding practices with your hatchlings.
And on another note, since you've uncovered the real meaning of life, Annihilation, I shall begin construction of the Church of Annihilation. Can you send me a few pics so I can also get started on the big bronze and gold statues for worship?
gelshark
 
The part about snakes only liking other snakes when they are horny - doesn't that show that they are thinking if they exhibit the "like" response? Or are they just acting on instinct to mate, which means that they don't have to really like the other snake while having sex (or even the sex itself) just that they are inclined to by their reaction to instincts?
uberalice
roflcopterz
"Like" is an anthropomorphic term. Unless we can be directly told by another organism that it feels an affection for us, it's all stipulation. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to believe that my pets like me, even my Bliz, but it's all assumption. We can't say for sure.
When snakes interact with each other during mating season I am much more apt to believe that it's hormones triggering the behavior than any other factor. There is some level of mate selection in many organisms (choosing the best mate based on factors like plumage color, mating display, etc), but when we breed animals in captivity they don't really get to pick their dates. I think hormones just take over, provided the snakes don't interact so badly that they refuse to mate.
When snakes interact with each other during mating season I am much more apt to believe that it's hormones triggering the behavior than any other factor. There is some level of mate selection in many organisms (choosing the best mate based on factors like plumage color, mating display, etc), but when we breed animals in captivity they don't really get to pick their dates.
I think hormones just take over, provided the snakes don't interact so badly that they refuse to mate.
Corny Noob
Proud Momma
The only reason I used the word like is because it's hard to describe an action occuring without using human words to attach feeling to the subject.
Mating is purely procreation, passing on their genes, the females pheremones drive the guy wild and he is driven into a tizzy to go after such a female because she will be less likely to beat the crud out of him if he tries to mate with her. It's just instinct, that's all.
Mating is purely procreation, passing on their genes, the females pheremones drive the guy wild and he is driven into a tizzy to go after such a female because she will be less likely to beat the crud out of him if he tries to mate with her. It's just instinct, that's all.
uberalice
roflcopterz
I understand. I catch myself using the term too. But back when I was a wee zoologist one of my very first classes had a prof who drilled it into our heads to be aware of anthropomorphism, and it stuck to me. On the other hand, I'll refer to flatworms as "Cutiepants" and name the amphipods living inside the fish tank, so maybe I've just misappropriated my terms.
On the other hand, I'll refer to flatworms as "Cutiepants" and name the amphipods living inside the fish tank, so maybe I've just misappropriated my terms. 
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
When I went to Bristol on Sunday to pick up some new snakes,a guy came into the shop. As I had to chat with Andy (the shop person) I let this guy go ahead of me, he was picking up an adult male corn. As he was handling it he remarked, it was to keep another of his corns company as it was lonely.When I asked him if he intended keeping them together he said yes. then I asked him what sex the other snake is,he said male. Two adult males in the same tank! His wife could tell by the look on my face something was wrong. I tried to explain he was making a bad choice,but he just said, It'll be o.k. I asked him how long he had the other snake, he said a month. i asked him how long he had kept snakes, guess what,a month.
I had to stop talking to my new found expert (after 1month) friend as I still hadn't paid for my collection and we still had to talk money.
There's an old Welsh saying ** you can lead a horse to water,but you can't teach a duck to suck eggs** (I just made that up, It's not Welsh)
MIKE *cymru am byth* thats Welsh
I had to stop talking to my new found expert (after 1month) friend as I still hadn't paid for my collection and we still had to talk money.
There's an old Welsh saying ** you can lead a horse to water,but you can't teach a duck to suck eggs** (I just made that up, It's not Welsh)
MIKE *cymru am byth* thats Welsh