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Rich Z's Blatherings Since Connie and I have retired the SerpenCo business, topics here will focus on topics of a more personal and general nature.

Butter Motleys & Butter het Motleys
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Old 07-12-2002, 02:22 AM   #1
Butter Motleys & Butter het Motleys

It looks like I am ONLY going to be able to get 1 pair of corns this year Get 2 more pairs next year! *sighs* Well anyways, I think I have decided to go with the Butters this year and next year go with the lavenders and more butters. Anyways, my question is:
Do any of your Butter Motleys or Butter het motleys have het traits as well? Ex: het for anery or hypo? Or striped etc?!
If they do, would it be benficial to buy them as hets to produce more different offspring and to be able to pair them up easier with other projects? Hope to hear from you soon Rich! Oh and will I be able to purchase them in August? I didnt know whether I should e-mail you or post on here! If you prefer me to e-mail you, just let me know! Thank you for your time. Take care, Lindsay
Old 07-12-2002, 12:32 PM   #2
Rich Z
I think it would be instructive to figure out what it would take to produce things like Butter Motleys het for Anerythrism. Kind of a reverse progeny predictor. What parents are necessary to be able to produce a given animal...... (this is a job for Super SerpWidgets!)

To produce a Butter Motley het for Anerythrism, you would pretty much need to have one of the adults in the pairing a quad homozygous animal. In this case it would be an animal homozygous for Caramel, Amelanism, Motley, and Anerythrism. As far as I know, there are none like that on the face of the earth at this moment. I did produce an Anerythristic Motley from Caramel Motley parents a couple of years ago, so I know the possibility is lurking around in my gene pool for a Snow Butter Motley.

Every year I see animals being sold that it just is not very likely they can be what the person is claiming they are. So be wary if you see something VERY exotic being sold with even more exotic genes being claimed as heterozygous.

Heterozygous animals are a necessary evil in what we are doing. The more genes that are heterozygous, the more evil it becomes. I've been doing a number of triple het crosses for years, and I despise it. Although the results can sometimes be rewarding, you find that you have to keep a huge colony of gene carriers on tap for breeding in order to overcome the hurtle of the statistical odds of producing what you are looking for. Don't rely on pure luck! Although it can happen, it is much more the exception than the rule.

As far as something like quad hets, forget it. I'd rather get a root canal. I forget what the odds are for a quad homozygous animal, but I think it's 1 in 256. So that means figuring on an average clutch of 16 eggs, I would have to have 16 females allocated to this project (plus at least half that many males) just to be in the running to produce a single solitary animal. IF I'm lucky enough. Since I sure would like to have a pair of them, double the number of adults. When I would finally produce this pair of quad homozygous animals, the COST of doing so would be pretty high.

So, LindsayMarie, to answer your question, I would have to say honestly that working with homozygous animals is the way to go. If you want to breed it to something else, say like an Opal corn, you would get much quicker results of getting something interesting rather than using hets. But even then, the results you would get would be Amelanistics het for Lavender, Caramel, and Motley, so we are back in the 1 in 64 odds again, but even the secondary products will be worthwhile. Personally, for this particular project, I would rather breed a Butter Motley to an Opal Motley to give me much better odds to work with.

The problem with breeding het to het together, is that all of the animals that are not clearly identifiable would ONLY be possible hets. So the 'luck' thing would be a deciding factor as to what sort of results you will get in the next generation.

Does this help?
Old 07-12-2002, 01:13 PM   #3
Thanks Rich :)

Actually that helped alot! I just realized a mistake I was making when computing corn genetics Now that I understand it better I should hopefully never get suckered into buying something too good to be true in the future! (of course not refering to you!!) I think I will stick with MOSTLY homozygous animals but I also like a challenge and mystery that hets will definately give. Thank you for explaining everything to me. Oh, when do you expect the Butter Motley and Butter het for motleys to be for sale? Thanks again, Rich! Take care
Old 07-12-2002, 01:33 PM   #4
Rich Z
Right now I am standing on the beach with the gentle waves of little corn snakes lapping against my ankles as the first clutches are hatching. That ominous rumbling I hear is the tidal wave approaching...........

Soon, they will ALL be hatching VERY soon.........
Old 07-12-2002, 01:47 PM   #5

I cant wait!! I will just keep my eyes open and contact you within the next couple weeks
Old 07-12-2002, 04:12 PM   #6
Darin Chappell

When you stated that you would rather cross a Butter Motley to an Opal Motley, you were just speaking in the hypothetical, right? I mean, there aren't any opal motleys available yet are there? I'm sure you're working on such an animal, but you don't have that yet do you? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to see a picture when you have the time [like in November!].

Old 07-12-2002, 06:00 PM   #7
Rich Z
Well, I don't reall know for sure if I have Opal Motleys or not. Here's a photo of one of them 'maybes':

Sure looks like it might be an Opal Motley, now doesn't it?

Well here's the problem. Back when I started this project, I bred an Opal Corn (Amelanistic Lavender) to a normal colored Motley. Come to find out that that Opal male is also het for 'A' Anerythrism. So when these babies hatch out, are the Opal Motleys, Snow Motleys or quad homozygous animals (Amelanism, Lavender, Anerythrism, & Motley)? Snow Motleys already look quite different from the Motley influence, and I must confess that I only get this sort of animal from some other projects I am working with. So by eyeballing them, I really don't know what the heck they are. Certainly the odds are that SOME of them are Opal Motleys, but which ones?

I'll tell you what, this 'A' Anerythrism gene has turned out to be a really bad penny that shows up nearly everywhere and gums up the results of a lot of my projects. I used to think it was a positive survival trait that is causing the native populations to gradually get more and more of these genetic diversions into the general population. But now I'm not so sure. I'm leaning more towards there being a factor that just makes more of them show up in a given population than a normal single recessive trait should. Or maybe it is the first example of a genetic trait that is transmitted via some sort of airborne vector. Darn if I know, but I think it is getting to the point where finding animals without Anerythrism in their gene pool is going to be very difficult to do.
Old 07-12-2002, 11:13 PM   #8
hehe I will pay the cheaper of the cost hehe (snow Motley i think ) hehe. I have no problems with silly lil genes. Infact I want that one right there it is beautiful!!!!!!
Old 07-13-2002, 11:18 AM   #9
Clint Boyer
Anery 'A' and Lavender

This is my first year producing any Lavenders or hets. The one Snow from a Lavender het anery and amel X amel het Lavender and anery could be homo Lav......maybe?

I also have a clutch of hets. Lav het anery and amel X Snow. This produced normals, amels, Snows and anerys.

I'm considering a project to force a homozygous anery 'A' and Lavender. I would think that a cross of anery het Lav X anery het Lav would be the best choice. The offspring should be (theoretically) 100% anery and 25% of those also homo Lav. There would also be amel mixed in just because it's there. "IF" there is one Lavender or Opal in the clutch that would prove Lav can show through the anery. "IF" There are only anerys, Snows it hasn't proven anything except the possibility of no Lav showing with anery or just bad luck.

Or better yet, Lav het anery X Lav het anery. If any anerys or Snows show up then anery dominates Lav. Hmmm...???

I'm sure that you (Rich Z.) have developed and idea of how these genes interact. I'd love to hear any hypothesis you may have developed on the issue.
Old 07-13-2002, 01:02 PM   #10
Rich Z
Well, this year I had a whole slew of animals that are either anerys probably homozygous for Lavender, anerys definitely het for Lavender, and anerys possibly het for Lavender. I bred them every which way I could think of including to straight Lavenders to see what the results would be. I also have a male that could possibly be a Ghost Lavender (Hypo, Anery, Lavender), so I used him in this witches' brew as well. I also have some Snows that are het for Lavender that I bred together, as I did last year, so I'm curious to see if I get all normal looking Snows again this year.

I suspect I'm going to have a huge number of normal looking Anerys that I am going to have to try to eyeball to see any very subtle differences in color that might indicate they are also homozygous for Lavender as well.

I wish I had some definite Ghosts het Lavender to work with, but at the very least I will have some babies this year to grow up and fiddle with in a few years. I bred several Anerys het for Lavender with Hypo Lavenders this year. I think the Hypo combined with anerythism may allow more discernible details to show through than Amelanism does when combined with Lavender.

Hmm, I thought I had bred Hypo Lav to Charcoal Ghost this year, but I checked the spreadsheet and apparently I did not. I must have chickened out at the last moment on that one..... Charcoal Ghosts can look awfully similar to Lavenders and I guess I figured this would be one step closer to insanity.

Hmm, there is a name for people intentionally killing themselves: suicide. Is there a term for someone whom intentionally drives themself crazy?

This is all like some huge jigsaw puzzle. Only problem is that the puzzle gets bigger every year and the pieces get smaller and more numerous.

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