Poll:Live or pre-killed?

Just one more thing... also my fiance... as well as myself, don't want to stare at frozen mice in the same place we keep ice cream and chicken... I don't think I'd ever want to eat if that were the case. That's just a small part... but eww... yea... no.

Ah... the age old debate.
I feed live... and pre-killed... and frozen/thawed.

I basically do what is convenient at the time. If I have many mice in the freezer and don't have the money, or I am too lazy, to go pick up my mice, then I will feed f/t.

Most of the time, however, I go to my work, and get all of the mice that I need live. I bring them home, and start feeding. Anything that is taking pinkies or fuzzies just gets live. They don't chew so there is no risk.
I usually just toss in the live hoppers and adult mice too, but I wait until the snake grabs it's prey. Live mice are never left unattended with a snake. If the snake shows no interest, I will either kill the mouse and leave it in with the snake, or I will take the mouse out completely. That all depends on the situation and the snake (I usually know why there is hesitation from snake to snake and case to case.) There are some snakes that I know won't eat while I watch, so they get a fresh killed mouse.
After a snake grabs it's live prey, I watch to see what kind of grab it has on the mouse. If the head is exposed in a way that the mouse might bite the snake, the mouse is killed while in the snakes grasp. This is done with either a good flick to the base of the skull (if the neck is not exposed) or a pinch and roll of the neck. Both will cause cervical dislocation (a fancy term for neck breaking) and the mouse dies immediately.

There are ways to feed live carefully. You just have to keep an eye on the feedings. For me, it is more convenient because I get my live mice at an incredible discount and I spend alot less time doing my feedings when I cut out the time of thawing over 100 mice. Also, if there are extra mice, I can kill them and freeze them to be used later as opposed to having to throw them away because they have already been thawed.

The only exception to the convenience factor of live for me is pinkies during breeding season. Before everything starts hatching, I buy a couple hundred frozen pinks online. When I buy that way, I save a bit of money. Also, it's nice to have enough pinkies around, in case I need them, and I get anything I am selling to eat f/t before I sell it, for the customer's sake.

I will say however, that I think that any animal that is eating rats should be given pre-killed or frozen/thawed if it is at all possible. Above, I was speaking solely about mice. Rats are the ones that are the cause of all the snake chewing that I've ever seen. I won't keep any boids anymore that won't take pre-killed.

RedRaydin said:

Just one more thing... also my fiance... as well as myself, don't want to stare at frozen mice in the same place we keep ice cream and chicken... I don't think I'd ever want to eat if that were the case. That's just a small part... but eww... yea... no.

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Right... so a dead mouse is worse than a dead chicken? At least the mice aren't pumped up with steroids for unaturally fast growth, overfed antibiotics to keep them from getting sick and then bleached post butchering to kill off some of the bacteria. They're just frozen mice. :shrugs:

Yea, but a mouse looks like a mouse. At least the chicken is in the form of patties or wings, hence it doesn't "look" like a chicken. I don't need something with fur packed with all it's insides still sitting in my freezer. Sorry just creeps me out. But I see what your saying. Hey I never said I'm not fat or eat unhealthy foods lol.

RedRaydin said:

Yea, but a mouse looks like a mouse. At least the chicken is in the form of patties or wings, hence it doesn't "look" like a chicken. I don't need something with fur packed with all it's insides still sitting in my freezer. Sorry just creeps me out. But I see what your saying. Hey I never said I'm not fat or eat unhealthy foods lol.

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Easy solution to that.

Opaque tupperware.

As for feeding live.... I breed my own mice. I prekill ALL of my mice, no matter how easy or convenient it might be to toss a live-and-kicking to a snake. I use carbon dioxide, which is humane and quicker than letting the snake take care of things; it reduces the stress on the mouse... which is still a living thing and deserves as humane a death as I can possibly provide, regardless of what it is 'for'.

What if The mouses teeth are broken completly off? Like when its a few days old, eyes opening stage, the teeth are grown but sensitive, what if the teeth are broken off by hand? That would elminate the bite factor.

Wow,.... now your talking cruelty. Reminds me of that horror movie "The Dentist"... ::shivers:: ... I guess that would be ok though lol. Have fun, make sure you wash your bloody hands lol.

This thread again?
That breaking off of mouse teeth business is about the meanest thing I've ever heard of.
:eek1:

ktran said:

What if The mouses teeth are broken completly off? Like when its a few days old, eyes opening stage, the teeth are grown but sensitive, what if the teeth are broken off by hand? That would elminate the bite factor.

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Well, I'm having trouble believing that you are serious, but...

I imagine that breaking the teeth off would be more trouble than just killing the mice quickly. And it would definitely be much more inhumane. I can't think of any reason that you would need to break the teeth off rather than just pre-kill.

Well put Trev...=)

I feed or have fed all three ways as well and I have way less snakes than folks like Trevor do. No method is "better" than another as long as you, the owner, use that method properly.

My current general feeding is:
Cleo - small rats, pre-killed or F/T
Carmen - small rats, pre-killed or F/T
Jenson - fuzzies/hoppers - live, pre-killed or F/T, depending on what I got

Right now I'm not feeding my rat eaters live, but that's mostly to assuage my worry of an unwanted bite and to be honest, it's just easier for me and the snakes really don't seem to care. =) But I know of plenty of boid breeders who feed and have fed live rats for years without a single problem. Again, use the method you want as long as you use that method properly. =)

LOL i made this thread a while ago....
i feed f/t, but i'm having problems with my snow hurricane mot so i might try live when i get to the pet store in virginia, if he lives until saturday

tom e said:

This thread again?
That breaking off of mouse teeth business is about the meanest thing I've ever heard of.
:eek1:

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AGREED.

Fed Tiaga live for the first 3 yrs I had her, she was a sub adult when I bought her and the petstore fed live mice. I continued the practice since I didn't know about f/t, moved her up to a small rat ever 2 weeks since that was the way I was told at the pet store. THEN I found this site and found I was feeding all wrong.

First I wasnt' feeding her enough and second I was feeding her live when I could have been feeding her f/t(which I had never heard of before).

I decided to TRY f/t small rats on her and she has not refused a feeding once. I now feed her once every 7 days vs the once every 14 days, and she is doing WONDERFULLY!

snakemom1961 said:

Fed Tiaga live for the first 3 yrs I had her, she was a sub adult when I bought her and the petstore fed live mice. I continued the practice since I didn't know about f/t, moved her up to a small rat ever 2 weeks since that was the way I was told at the pet store. THEN I found this site and found I was feeding all wrong.

First I wasnt' feeding her enough and second I was feeding her live when I could have been feeding her f/t(which I had never heard of before).

I decided to TRY f/t small rats on her and she has not refused a feeding once. I now feed her once every 7 days vs the once every 14 days, and she is doing WONDERFULLY!

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:-offtopic
There might not be people that agree with me on this, and I'm not coming at you telling you that what you are doing is wrong, but...
I think that you might be better off feeding less frequently if you are feeding your snake rats. I personally think that rats are not good for Corns, except in instances when you need to bulk them up. I have seen quite a few corns that were fed rats exclusively that have huge fat deposits.
I think that mice are a much better meal item for our snakes.

Again, that's just my opinion. I've seen quite a few obese colubrids, and all of them were being fed rats weekly.

I love all animals and can't stand to see one suffer or die. I will only give frozen. It breaks my heart to even know that some animal has to go through pain and suffering especially when it isn't necessary.

Fenderplayer108 said:

Please for the sake of your snake, and the sake of your pocket book when you need to rush to a vet because of something like this..
.
Would you really want your snake to go through this?
.

.
Just my 2 cents.
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos

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Is the poor boa dead? It seems to be restrained in the first pic. I've seen a much nastier picture than this. A poor royal python who had skin chewed off all the way down its back and chewed up on the head as well.
It was still alive, and the way its mouth was open made it look like it was screaming in agony

here it is again

I just posted this in a different section and then remembered this thread.......SO.....

This was posted on another forum and thought there were a few people here who needed to read it.

"My corn snake was bit in the eye by a live mouse. I forgot to knock the mouse out as I have not fed live for several years. The eye cap looks like it is dented and kinda bunched up in the bottom. can soemone please help me?"


obviously my response was get the snake to a vet.
There is no way we can help via the internet.

This snake could have easily had its eye put out, if it wasn't...

This is exactly why we recommend against feeding live mice and rats (old enough to bite) to pet snakes.
It is JUST NOT WORTH THE RISK.
Yes there are special circumstances but freshly killed will work.
If they will eat live they will eat a freshly killed or stunned prey item.
There is no way to rationalize it otherwise.

As a mouse lover who also has a snake, I have to chime in here. I am not judging anyone's feeding choices, but I have to respond to the age-old argument that it's humane to the MOUSE to feed it live just because it's natural.

You will die some day. Let's say you have to do it at the hands of some other creature--in captivity, so to speak. Would you rather do it at some time when you're not expecting it, sitting in a comfy chair, with an invisible, odorless gas that creeps in and puts you to sleep? Or would you rather be thrown into an escape-proof enclosure with hungry lions and no means of defending yourself and no place to hide? Wouldn't the hungry lions be the "natural" way to go?

I'm not going to tell everyone they always have to feed F/T. But don't fool yourselves thinking that feeding live is humane because it's the "natural" way to die. I'm willing to bet everything I own that *you* wouldn't want to die the "natural" way.

Just my 2 cents. And I don't think it's weird to love rats and mice and snakes. I do!

Heather

RedRaydin said:

Snakes are adaptive in captivity as well as in nature. If taught from the beginning to feed live and they kill effectively then I don't see a problem. I know friends that have had boa's and fed live for years with no repurcussions. Lucky? Maybe... but I believe it can be done so long as you don't start off with thawed or pre-killed.

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I do have to agree with Red.. if the hunting instinct is honed from hatchling size, the snake will be better equipped to handle adult mice.

I feed live to my corn. Been that way since day one. Usually I hold the mouse by the tail, snake strikes, constricts, eats. If the mouse is unusally fiesty, then I knock it against the wall or table to stun it and let the snake go at it. I've tried switching to F/T, but after almost two to three months of refusing food and losing some weight I went back to live. And I've tried switching at least six times over the years, each time with the same results. My snake has chosen its preferred food and that is what I feed it. Each of us cares for our animals, scaled, feathered or furry.. so to each their own I say. If a method works for you then thats great.

Just my two cents worth...

ladydragon said:

I feed live to my corn. Been that way since day one. Usually I hold the mouse by the tail, snake strikes, constricts, eats. If the mouse is unusally fiesty, then I knock it against the wall or table to stun it and let the snake go at it. I've tried switching to F/T, but after almost two to three months of refusing food and losing some weight I went back to live. And I've tried switching at least six times over the years, each time with the same results. My snake has chosen its preferred food and that is what I feed it. Each of us cares for our animals, scaled, feathered or furry.. so to each their own I say. If a method works for you then thats great.

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Your story illustrates a good point that should be considered seriously be anyone thinking of buying a corn snake. Their choice of prey type is not always up to us. A keeper must be prepared for the possibility that they may have to use live food at some point. And this is not limited to hatchlings that haven't developed good feeding response. I've had a number of juveniles that had eaten f/t for every meal since they were hatchlings suddenly go off f/t, but respond to live. This is relatively rare, and all of these snakes eventually converted to f/t. It's even rarer for an adult to change food preferences. But you have to prepared for the possibility.

heatherhead42 said:

As a mouse lover who also has a snake, I have to chime in here. I am not judging anyone's feeding choices, but I have to respond to the age-old argument that it's humane to the MOUSE to feed it live just because it's natural.

You will die some day. Let's say you have to do it at the hands of some other creature--in captivity, so to speak. Would you rather do it at some time when you're not expecting it, sitting in a comfy chair, with an invisible, odorless gas that creeps in and puts you to sleep? Or would you rather be thrown into an escape-proof enclosure with hungry lions and no means of defending yourself and no place to hide? Wouldn't the hungry lions be the "natural" way to go?

I'm not going to tell everyone they always have to feed F/T. But don't fool yourselves thinking that feeding live is humane because it's the "natural" way to die. I'm willing to bet everything I own that *you* wouldn't want to die the "natural" way.

Just my 2 cents. And I don't think it's weird to love rats and mice and snakes. I do!

Heather

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I'm a rodent lover as well. Especially rats. Mine have been amazing pets. I buy all my snake food just like I buy my own food, already dead and in neat little packages