"AKC" type registry for reptiles?

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Uh, I typically have between 300 and 450 clutches per year...... All of them hatching out around the same time. Most people would not believe the stress levels around here at that time. Oh yeah, the Daytona Beach Expo is right in the middle of it. Sure, I can see people standing in front of my tables miffed because I don't have a certificate for each animal there.

Rich, I'm not suggesting that you register clutches. I know how much work you have to do--you dont have time to be running around and loading clutch numbers onto the web.

However, the idea of each big breeder having a "set ID code" makes some sense. For you, Kathy, or Don to enter in all of your clutches would be physically impossible.

I do know what everything you ship out is labeled correctly, with hets and everything else. That is 3/4 of the whole process right there for the buyer, if they were to choose to register it.

As I've said numerous times, we cant expect the big breeders to jump into this. They simply have too many animals to be entering things online---there's no benefit for you guys because your lines are well known, and respected.

However, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people's breeding stock is made up of Serpenco stock, CornUtopia stock, and SMR stock.

It's too bad there couldn't be a barcode system or something of the sort.

Some of Rich's concerns are solvable, but not all...

When I used to breed Persian cats, I just registered the litter. The parents are registered, but there is no photo of the parents or babies on record. I told the CFA how many in the litter, paid a fee, and they sent me that number of registrations to give to the buyers so they could be registered if desired. The buyers did not have to send photos. So of course there is some fraud, but purebred cats and dogs are worth more $$$ than most corns, so there is more incentive to lie. But if a breeder gets caught, I would imagine their CFA or AKC days are over - not really worth it for most. Whatever the amount of fraud, the clubs have been around for a long time, so I guess their system works.

For somebody who produces A LOT, if they wanted to participate, I would assume that they wouldn't bother with all of the litters of normals or low end corns that they just wanted to wholesale anyway. Or maybe just register a few of the best lowend clutches to be sold retail. I don't produce nearly as many as Rich, but still quite a few. If I wanted to participate, I would register my adults in the off-season, then register the clutches of eggs (we would need provision to do it that way, rather than wait until they actually hatch, even though some will not hatch in some cases) during that lull when most are laid, but before they hatch. I would probably offer both registered "pedigreed" babies and regular non-pedigreed babies to see if people would be willing to pay a little more for the extra work. If not, I don't know if I would find the time to keep up with it, as I would be planning to cut the number of babies I produce to make up for the extra work. But even so, it just might not be worth it for somebody like Rich.

However, I don't see that it would let out trade secrets. If a breeder sells their new variety of a super duper pastel gold encrusted pewter, and doesn't want to say more than that it is genetically a charcoal bloodred, then it is registered as a charcoal bloodred and the customers can breed like to like until everybody has super duper... and then they are a new registered selectively bred line just like the original. Obviously the breeder will have to say SOMETHING about what it is genetically if he hopes to sell many at any decent price. So I guess that whatever the breeder says is what we will go by, until such time as it is proven to be false.

Originally Posted by kathylove

If I wanted to participate, I would register my adults in the off-season, then register the clutches of eggs (we would need provision to do it that way, rather than wait until they actually hatch, even though some will not hatch in some cases) during that lull when most are laid, but before they hatch. I would probably offer both registered "pedigreed" babies and regular non-pedigreed babies to see if people would be willing to pay a little more for the extra work.

I think that's do-able. If you were able to mark each egg box with a number, and then jump online while they're incubating and enter the parents genetics for that specific clutch, and be done with it. Then if someone orders a snake that fits that genetic makeup, you could just mark the number on the deli cup and ship it out, no?

I dont know if that would be a super amount of work or not, since I've never done it. I'm just throwing ideas out and hope that something sticks.....

I think if this was done only for the purpose of tracking a snakes background for hets possible hets ect. for the idividual owners/breeders benifit then it would be a good idea. The way it is beng described it seems like it would be a way for certan breeders to jack up thier prices well droping the value of other peoples snakes.If others wanted to get even close to the registered breeders prices they are going to have to cough up some cash and pay someone else for thier hard work and invesments. The thing that bugs me the most is that who is to say what the best looking animals are. there is so much individual discretion there and thats part of what makes this hobby fun.Some hobbiests would buy a snake with one look over another because it was registered even if they liked the look of the unregistered snake more simply becauae a few people on a board somewhere decided they looked better. wouldn't that board be a little bit biast in favor of the look of thier own line after all it's the line they chose to work with or even developed.It would also discourage breeders from going in a new direction with projects. New hobbiests would be tricked into believing that the registered snakes where of a higher quality then the unregistered snakes. They also may believe that the registered snakes are more likely to be closer to pure corns wich would not be the case at all . Kathy is alredy refering to some as "mutts" well talking about registering creamcicles almost in the same breath (sorry not trying to give you a hard time with that one kathy just makking a point).

Another potential "plus" for a corn registry...perhaps, once a registry is well-established for a few generations, states, such as New Jersey, will allow herpers to own normal corns that can be proven to be born and bred in captivity for multiple generations via the registry. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Susan

Another potential "plus" for a corn registry...perhaps, once a registry is well-established for a few generations, states, such as New Jersey, will allow herpers to own normal corns that can be proven to be born and bred in captivity for multiple generations via the registry. Just a thought.

Very good point.

A registry is just information. Registered animals are only worth more to people that desire the additional information or information in that format. It depends on who your "audience" is, your buyers' demographic.

You won't stop some people from playing the "mine is better'n yurs cuz it's paper'd" game. However, the benefit I would hope would be more than that. An information storehouse. A record, a lineage. Suppose a trait was noticed in a group of corns. With the records, the line could be looked at to see if it was showing tendencies...etc.

I have to say that Jason's point is the problem I have with a certain way of doing standards for morphs. It's setting someone's will of how a type of snake should look on others. I just think we are way early in the game to set type beyond the most basic for selectively bred morphs. Most morphs right now are defined by their genes. The standards would only reflect that, for now. Telling someone with copper saddled anerys that all anerys should strive for jet black saddles, for example, would be very limiting indeed at this point.

I think "Morph Standards" are something that will eventually be set by whoever sets up judging and showing rules and regs. That's not to say a "healthy snake" standard can't be set...describing clean, shiney scales, etc. etc.

However, this is a totally separate thing from a registry, which is just a record, a living log of geneological info.

There are already situations where the "authorities" disagree with what some of the pet buyers want. Two that come to mind are Siamese cats that have been bred with exceedingly elongated faces and Persian cats that have been bred with extremely flat faces, just to please the judges and win points, because that was what worked at the shows. But a lot of pet buyers don't like the extremes, so some breeders have responded by going back to producing "apple head" Siamese and "dish face" , "doll face", or "peke face" Persians, something to suit every taste - judges and pet owners alike. I haven't kept up on recent developments, but I would guess if both types remain really popular, there would be reason to have standards for more than one type, or even the basis for a new breed.

As to mixed breeds, or mutts: They can make great pets whether cats, dogs, snakes, or whatever. But ponder this: Say you want to breed really super candycanes. You go to a show and find a couple of nice pairs of similar quality. One pair is offered by a dealer who bought them and has no idea what the parents look like. The other is a reputable breeder who assures you that the parents and grandparents, and great grandparents were topnotch, gorgeous animals, perfect examples of candycanes. Although the babies look of similar quality, which ones do you think are a better gamble for your future breeding projects? Now imagine that the breeder is totally unknown, but telling you the same good news about the ancestry. However, there has been a registry in effect for 15 years and his babies have 18 champion candycanes in their pedigree, animals that were judged to be great examples of the written standard for candycanes. Now that unknown breeder can compete with the well known breeders because his bloodlines have been proven over time to produce whatever it is that the cornsnake community has decided makes up a good candycane. And if a significant number of breeders decide that a new type of candycane is getting popular, either the standard can be changed, or a new "breed" can be established, or buyers can just ignore the standard and buy what they like.

As for commanding a higher price, I certainly would (and already did) pay a higher price to know what I am really getting instead of just getting it cheap from a dealer who has no idea what the parents look like. So why wouldn't I pay a little more to somebody who bothered to keep good records and has a pedigree for their snake?

"Now imagine that the breeder is totally unknown, but telling you the same good news about the ancestry. However, there has been a registry in effect for 15 years and his babies have 18 champion candycanes in their pedigree, animals that were judged to be great examples of the written standard for candycanes. Now that unknown breeder can compete with the well known breeders because his bloodlines have been proven over time to produce whatever it is that the cornsnake community has decided makes up a good candycane."

If you didn't have enough trust in the seller before you knew the hatchlings where registered, why would you have trust in him when he tells you they are? You would still be puting your faith in him being honest. Whats to stop someone from telling you that his animals are pegigree when they are not? If he had failed to produce offspring from the his pair of registered breeders and and he was the same dishonest person, Couldn't he just sell you animals that he bought from an add in the local paper? Registered or not you still would have to trust him. a registry wouldn't prove anything.
As far as mutts/hybrids go. Sure they can make great pets, but I don't think we are talking about registering animals to prove they will make great pets. Just for the record are we talking about registering hybrids? If so how can we even know what is and what is not a hybrid. For the sake of newer hobbiests reading this and someone correct me if I'm wrong. Amels have been around since the sixties and the first caramel was found in a petstore with little or no background information.
A family tree type of register could be created for little or no charge to the user By selling add space or even minimal anual fees and would still be subject to good faith. No one would need to make insane amounts of money putting it up. Breeders could do a search on thier own mames and if people were bull sh*ting about where they got the animals breeders/dealers could bust them on it. After a warning or two( people make mistakes) the liars could be baned.

I would say that my interest is directed purely at a project with the goal of creating/maintaining a "family tree" which everyone can access. I am convinced it can be done without costing breeders money or large amounts of time. (If buyers want their animals papered, they pay the fee, not the seller.)

I could personally write programs to enter/track/view such data, and am planning it for our own CCCorns stock anyway. I think it would be easily expandable without any serious effort. Being a programmer, it is no problem updating the app and the format of the database whenever the specifications need to be changed (such as when a new locus is discovered/recognized.)

As far as the shows and breed standards, that's something that is not important in the least to me. I would enjoy the competitions and such and would like to attend and even compete in them if it's practical. But, as a hobbyist, I will always breed exactly what I like, whether or not anyone else will ever want to buy it... standards schmandards.