...sigh! Fat Boy? or Gravid Gal?

:wavey:
Well... For those of you who have been keeping up with the whole
"Whytsnake Saga & On Going Drama", first let me thank You ALL from the bottom of my heart for all your kind words and thoughts. Also for all your time, support, advice & especially the gift of your personal experiences that you have so willingly shared with me! You all truly are a rare breed of Folks! And if I had known all I had to do to find ya all, was to "GET ME SOME CORNSNAKES TO RAISE AND BREED"... I would have been knee deep in Corns 20 yrs ago! :bowdown:

I have some news...

She has only laid a total of 9 eggs, begining with the first 6 eggs on Apr.7, & the last 1 egg on Apr 14th. She completed her "Post-Lay" shed just 2 days ago & for the first time in a few weeks, she was VERY ACTIVE, not just during the shed process, but for about an hour afterwards too.
In the last two days, I have filled her water dish 2 times! She is drinking enough for three snakes! Which, as I understand it, is a good thing, especially since she is STILL refusing ANY AND ALL food.

I don't have to tell you my friends, following Poor Brett and Dizz's story these past weeks is not only heartbreaking, but to me... SCARY TOO!
I already told ya all... I JUST CAN NOT HAVE ANOTHER LOSS THIS SOON TO PRINCESS! :blowhead: But... I am staying as positive as I can... and eveidently "calm" enough while around Whyt, cuz she used to squirm when ever I got her out, she now relaxes in my arms and wraps around my neck and waist when I "Message & attempt to Manipulate" those remaining eggs down closer to EXITING!

Now... there is good news also... :cheers:

1st -
All nine eggs seem to be doing ok, the last egg, layed over a week after the first was the closest thing to "normal" of ALL her eggs so far! It was even WHITE! lol Although it is a strange kinda shape, but then ALL OF THEM ARE compared to the eggs I see posted here! LOL... To be serious, they all look like crap... :shrugs: but none have dented any further than they were at laying, there is no blue or green growing and NOTHING STINKS YET! LOL Kathy advised me that she has seen babies hatch out of some HORRID looking eggs & never gives up on an egg until it DOES STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN!

And 2nd -
Even though it is "VERY VISUALLY OBVIOUS" that she still has AT LEAST 6 to 9 eggs in her... They have dropped, and all but about 2, are now jammed up in a tight row together, and the row starts just a breath from her vent! I have been CLOSELY AND CONSTANTLY corresponding with Kathy Love, who I "KNOW".. KNOWS HER STUFF!! And today... IS THE DAY! I was able to slowly and gently adjust that first egg, to where I could see it through her vent this am. (Only a thick felt tip pen circle, but at least I know it's there!
This afternoon, I am going to attempt to "Extract That Egg", I was pretty nervous about it at first, but my confidance has grown more with each and every "message" I have given her. I realize that I may have "Repeat" this procedure once a day until we get all the remaining eggs out, but I am hoping that by removing a couple "STUCK" ones, she may be able to push a few out herself also!! Thinking Positive... I am learning QUICKLY how important a positive attitude can be... Both for the snakes "empathy" sake & for my own damn self too!

Sooo... If ya all could just one more time, keep me and Whytsnake in your thoughts, prayers or whatever POSITIVE powers you can send our way... We will hopefully get through this with out to much more "Drama" and bring this "Saga" to a happy ending!

LOVE YOU EACH AND EVERY ONE!!!
Mary Ann & Whytsnake!

I'm glad to hear you're staying postive. People on this site really are supportive, almost without exception. You and Whytsnake are in my thoughts.

THANK YOU CARYL! And O M G ! It turns out we NEED TO BE IN A LOT OF PEOPLES THOUGHTS! I have already spoken to Kathy and sent her pictures... SHE HAS NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS~!
1st she popped out what looks like a "Siamese Egg".. Then while it was still attatched in her, she popped out a normal looking egg that rolled away as soon as it was out of her... 30 minutes later, out comes this even STRANGER looking egg complete with a "Sudo Placenta" and veins running "THROUGH" the shell... not ON TOP OF IT! And it is attatched to the Siamese double AND still attatched somehow inside of her... It has now been an hour... She has been resting, and it is ALL still attached to her vent. The double has turned a consistant color of yellow and the one single is STILL pink and VEINED! But the bleeding has stopped so it must have clotted alright on it's own.

PLEASE, pass this around to ALL the breeders and see if ANYONE has a clue WHAT THE H#!! is going on with my Girl!!!


Thankx in advance:

Looks like she has prolapsed her oviduct with eggs in it. You need to go to a vet immediately. This is an emergency.

I agree. A vet visit is needed immediately! Oh my gosh! I'll keep you and whytsnake in my thoughts!

OK...I called our regular Vet and they are calling in a favor... There is a Reptile Vet that retired here in Tahoe... But he can't get into the office untill after 4pm...... PRAY FOR us People.....PLEASE ! ! ! !

PS: 2 more NORMAL eggs just popped out on the outside of the bag...

fingers crossed that everything is going to be fine!

Hey Nancy or anyone?... While I am waiting... If this is a prolapsed Oviduct... What exactly CAN they do to save her?
And just so you know... I am following Kathy's advice and keeping her in her laying box so she can't rip the sack on anything...Plus, it limits her movement somewhat as it is small...

More eggs are popping out around the outside of the bag! This is good right? cuz an hour ago, I could still feel 9 or more eggs up inside her... Besides the three in the bag, she has now expelled 4 normal ones OUTSIDE the bag... They are in the incubator even though they prolly are not viable... For now anyways.. THATS WHERE THEIR GOING TILL WE KNOW FOR SURE!

"Trying NOT to panic, I have stopped crying now... and am ready FOR THIS ALL TO BE OK! ! ! ! !
~Mary Ann

I don't know the answer. I guess my first instinct is to put her on moist paper towels, to keep the area clean, but if she is still laying, then I might leave her in her lay box so as to not upset her further.

Be prepared for your snake to need surgery, and for her to probably not be able to mate again.

Praying to the snake gods for you guys!!!

I agree with Nanci, although I have not seen a prolapse in a snake I have seen them in turtles and it looks very similar. She will most likely need surgery to fix it. I am conflicted with what to do till you can get her to the vet normally you should try to keep it clean and moist but if she is still laying taking her out of the box may stress her more.:shrugs:

Best of luck, I hope everything turns out well with her.

OMG! That has to be the worst prolapse I've ever seen. Nanci is right a vet is in need immediately. Thank goodness one is on the way. I'm positive that's going to take surgery to fix and she will never be able to breed again. Bless your heart. I hope all goes well. If you think there are no more eggs, put her in a small tote on some wet paper towels.

OH MY GOSH, i think i rethinking about breeding my little female Coral (who i think is a amel)

Good Luck, Mary Ann.
Sincerely,
Eric

I am glad you found a reptile vet who might be wiling to help - sounded like you had only cat and dog vets near you. Were you able to get to the vet today?

Keep us updated!!

Scary stuff, its crazy how such horrible things can happen anywhere, anytime, for any reason.

I received the reply from my vet friend I told you about...

I forwarded the photos to her, and she confirms what we all thought...

"Looks like she prolapsed her oviduct. That covering is the lining of the oviduct and the dark stuff looks like a clot inside the oviduct between the two eggs to me. The snake needs to see a vet."

Let us know if you got to the herp vet, and how it turned out.

Good luck!

First just let me say THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!!!!!!! Please know how much Sean, Whytsnake & I appriciate your warm & caring words and incouragment.

And an EXTRA SPECIAL THANK YOU TO KATHY LOVE FOR GOING THAT EXTRA MILE & BEYOND, WITH ME FOR THE LAST COUPLE DAYS & YESTERDAY!!

AND TO NANCY, FOR HER LIGHTNING QUICK RESPONSE AND KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS!

ok..... now,

...................sigh! What a flipping nightmare this last two days have been. We were at the Vets for nearly 45 minutes before he showed up around 4:30 pm. During which time, one of the eggs broke through that "Oviduct bag", she laid another 2 eggs nomally over the top of the oviduct, and once again started bleeding.
When the "So-Called" Reptile Vet finally showed up, he manipulated the other two eggs out of the bag while telling us that basicaly, She needed the snake equivalent of a Hystorectomy and that including the anyastesia, (<-can't speel good) and IF there wasn't more wrong with her once he got inside, We were looking at about $1100.00, and there would be no guarentee she would recover, 'EVEN IF" she made it through the surgery, as she is obviously so weak. Oh yeah...and they would need a deposit of $750.00 up front, right then, to even get started. .......................double sigh!

Just like Brett with Dizz, we don't have that kind of money, granted we could put it on our Credit card, but then if she still died..........? (which he seemed to lay odds on) Not to mention the 12% interest... Well....you see my meaning I am sure..... (If you are squeemish, you may not want to read on...)
sooooo....
We discussed it (Sean & I) and decided to take her, the two normal eggs and the three eggs from her oviduct home, and "when" she began to show signs of distress or pain of any kind... We would put her out of her misery at home. Sean actually said, he could drown her... To which I IMMEDIATLY said...
"NO no no, I once helped a friend youthinize her 2 foot lizard with some kind of "Flesh eating infection" she was told the lizard would die from it... So, we took him out in the snow, and stayed with him until he was..... gone. (we were told he couldn't hybernate through 10* weather and that it was a very humane way to do it) It worked, and it was totally painless. We never saw even a hint of distress, as a matter of fact, it was the first time in DAYS, he wasn't distressed, because the cold numbed his skin instantly. So... when it is time, we will just put Whytsnake in the freezer over night... I would imagine that would do it after all I have read about what degree they should be "Brumated at". "
Poor Sean was SO releived that he would not have to do it his way... And understood completely how painless it would be my way.
So... we brought her home, I cleaned her up again, put a pillow case covering the bottom of her VIV. Clean, damp paper towels in her laying box and watched her for several hours. She seemed worn out completely although she did manage to drink a tad bit of water... she just laid still so we let her be.
We woke up EARLY this am to check on her, and she had come out of her box, and was curled up on the hot side, on the dry pillowcase. There was another egg (normal looking) across the VIV on her shell and get this... When I opened the Viv to see if she was alive or dead and get the egg... Not only was she alive... but that entire blood filled, ripped oviduct bag... was back inside of her! I pulled the laying box out and there was not one drop of new blood! Just the same amount there had been after the bag tore... I went to gently pet her head like she likes... and she raised her head into the pet... she even had some strength behind it! She then drank a sip of water and laid back down... That was all around 5am this morning. It is now noon, and she just got another short drink (the water is RIGHT NEXT TO HER in a shallow dish), there still is no new blood, and she doesn't appear to be anything except WORN OUT... Which seems perfectly natural considering.....
Now, I realize that this does not mean she IS FOR SURE going to survive... But hey, as long as she does not appear to be in pain or distress... Hell, who knows! Sean is getting some retile antibiotic and vitamins on his way to work, (it's better to have some around anyways, we do have 5 other snakes) and if she is still ok by the time he comes home around 8pm, we will put that in her water and go from there. And if she shows any signs of distress before then, well, now that I had accepted she was going to die yesterday, I will be strong enough to put her in the freezer if need be.

.......................so, there's where we are so far...............
And to those of you who have been through this prolapse thing, PLEASE! Do not be afraid to tell me that even though it receeded into her she will still die... Like I said, I accepted the loss yesterday, cried for 2 hours, then resolved myself to the same thing I had to when my little Princess dog was suffering three weeks ago... Youthinization is kinder than letting ANY LOVED PET SUFFER! I already thought about the possible infection of that thing being open and then going back into her, that is why we are getting the antibiotics...
I don't know folks, it seems that as long as SHE seems ok, we owe it to her to give BOTH HER and NATURE a chance.... We shall see soon I am sure...

Thoughts? Opinions? What do you guys think?

~Mary Ann

I have no idea how you stayed sane throughout this ordeal. I wish you and your baby the best. I am a pretty firm believer that the natural route is the best way to let things sort themselves out. I have my fingers crossed for you and your snake. Get her well soon, or love her until the end.

Rich