just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

Of course half the space is not large enough for one...but the whole tank is just fine for two. Its really simple. They can stretch out in the whole tank, they cant in half the space. I should think that would be obvious; I explained the math behind it. As for how a large cage benefits an animal, well, I should think that should be apparent as well. I explained that one also, upthread. I am happy none of your snakes have had scale rot. Maybe mine were on the damp for far longer than I realized. No one is perfect, after all. In the well over 10 years...actually come to think of it, its about 15 years... I have had snakes, all happily cohabiting, this is the 2nd bout of it. My snakes have lived for many many years, and I have no personal evidence their housing has shortened their life span.

"Space is not a huge issue for snakes". I am seeing the opposite; my snakes do better in larger enclosures. One of my special needs crew is eating far better now that he is in a 55 gallon rather than the 20 long that everyone says is just fine for an adult corn/rat. (He is a rosy rat snake; hes been with me 8 years). I see my guys climb, slither, bask on their "loft". They do indeed seem to enjoy the large space provided.

As for Nanci, she has given me great advice before on a few topics. I do not doubt her wisdom or font of knowledge in many areas. But, I am not in agreement with her on this one issue.

Originally Posted by starsevol

As far as water causing scale rot, like I said before, 3 of my males...no make that 4 are wallowing in their water bowls, as in emptying them allll over their bins. I try to keep up but they keep doing it. I check them in the morning, go to work, and come home and their bins are swimming pools.

I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

Originally Posted by Nanci

I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

Thanks you Nanci, from me, Stark, Mojo, Twix and Syko. They will be singing "How Dry I am" in no time!!

And sorry Lyre, but if half is too small for one, then it is too small for 2 whether they can stretch out or not. They need to not even see each other at all. Simple math. If you are short of space, have you considered building up and not out? I mean can you put another cage the same size on top of the one you have now? That would be really good for them. And I would bet cash money that if you did that and seperated them, you would never ever see scale rot ever again....

Originally Posted by Lyreiania

Let us go over some basic math.

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

Originally Posted by Chip

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

She has told you repeatedly that her snakes are calmer and seem a lot more relaxed when cohabbed. That, to her, is a benefit to the snake. I agree that an environment in which a snake seems to be less stressed might actually benefit the animal.

I know I'm going to hear the "OMG BUT YOU CANT SEE STRESS" argument again, but that's the whole point here - we don't KNOW what makes a snake happy and what stresses them out, so all we can go by is their behaviour.

As for the "solitary in the wild" argument - Sure. They are solitary in the wild. That is usually related to limited food resources - each snake needs a large habitat to hunt and capture enough prey to sustain itself. You will notice that in areas where food sources are abundant, even solitary animals will often share habitats without any issues whatsoever. I know that doesn't mean that we should definitely cohabit our snakes, but it does prove that solitary animals in the wild apparently aren't always bothered by sharing space with others.

@Nanci - I got replies from most of the people I contacted, and most of them don't want to be dragged into a discussion they're not a part of (and especially a very heated one). To be honest, I don't blame them. Barbara, however, allowed me to use her name here. I know certain people here have already had some arguments with her, but among all dutch keepers I know in person, she's quite respected

Yeah, Babara did herself no favors when she posted pictures of her enclosures. She also admitted what she did to her boas was wrong. That's not going to help the cause much. There is a thread where all of that is posted right out in the public view. She has also openly admitted that she cohabs for her benefit, not the animals.

Barbara listened to us when were telling her about her boas being stressed and did the right thing by separating them. Barbara and I have clashed on more than one occasion, but I have a lot of respect for her because she did the right thing and stopped cohabbing the stressed out boas.

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Nanci

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

True.

That is also publicly posted by Barbara herself on the forums.

I have NO ISSUE with cohabbing, if it is done properly. So far, almost none of the people posting about it do it correctly, Barbara included.

Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

The thing is, nothing I see written in any of the OPs posts proves that the snakes are under stress. So they are trying to have sex with each other. That is not necessarily stress related (as I pointed out earlier, I have a male snake who was trying to mate with a piece of wood). Yes, they have scale rot, but that's not necessarily stress related. All you need for scale rot are the unfortunate conditions of moist and some bacteria. Of course there are things that could make a snake more susceptible (high overall humidity, low environmental temperatures, poor nutrition, thermal burns and injured skin (1)), but you can't conclude just from the fact that she's cohabbing her snakes and they have scale rot that it MUST be the cohabbing causing the scale rot. You can speculate, but it's FAR from a certainty.

1) Dermatology in Reptiles, Emily Hoppmann, DVMb, Heather Wilson Barron, DVM, Dip. ABVP (Avian)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...57506307001516)

Originally Posted by Nanci

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

You must be referring to a different case than the one I heard of - the only case of her that I heard of was where she was breeding a king snake to a corn and - stupidly - left the room while they were at it. She knows that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't have much to do with cohabbing. If it was another case, please correct me.