Frozen V. Live

I'm not good at creating links, but Ian.sagepub.com/content/10/1/1.full.pdf has a resource regarding the mouse pinworm. In particular, page 8 points out that the organism is quite resistant to cold and disinfectants. I had to eradicate this pest from my gerbil colony some years ago. I don't know what if any effect the pinworm would have on snakes (perhaps none).

Originally Posted by daddio207

With the big rodent breeders competing on price and service the cost of feeding FT is so low now that breeding your own is not worth it IMO.

I think it depends in the set-up. For most of the year, I produced 2-3 times what I needed for my adult breeder corns. During hatching, I still had leftovers. I sold the excess for half of what the local shops were selling them for and made more than I needed for production. And keeping the colony took minimal work. I can understand not wanting to breed your own mice, but that's not reason to say f/t is a better feeder, it's simply more convenient.

Originally Posted by daddio207

You stated that many parasites survive the freezing process. Please educate us on which ones? Are these parasites common in captive bred rodents?
Honestly I ask out of always trying to improve my knowledge as a herper.

Most parasites will survive the freezing process is not frozen and stored properly. In captive bred rodents, parasites are very rare. When they come from reputable dealers, they are almost non-existent.
This is a guide from the FDA regarding freezing for general parasites in human food: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Gu.../UCM252393.pdf

Originally Posted by Aurora314

I'm not good at creating links, but Ian.sagepub.com/content/10/1/1.full.pdf has a resource regarding the mouse pinworm. In particular, page 8 points out that the organism is quite resistant to cold and disinfectants. I had to eradicate this pest from my gerbil colony some years ago. I don't know what if any effect the pinworm would have on snakes (perhaps none).

http://lan.sagepub.com/content/10/1/1.full.pdf

Thanks for posting. I will re-read it again later. Very interesting !

Originally Posted by ipreventdeath

I think it depends in the set-up. For most of the year, I produced 2-3 times what I needed for my adult breeder corns. During hatching, I still had leftovers. I sold the excess for half of what the local shops were selling them for and made more than I needed for production. And keeping the colony took minimal work. I can understand not wanting to breed your own mice, but that's not reason to say f/t is a better feeder, it's simply more convenient.

Most of my setup was the same as the big rodent breeders. For me, to keep the room and rodents in sanitary condition required a lot of work. Your right in the fact that a FT feeder is simply more convenient. Any nutrition that's lost in the freezing process is also minimal and has no bearing on the health of the reptile. That said, also with convenience and safety (toothed rodents) in mind makes FT rodents a better option.

Originally Posted by ipreventdeath

Most parasites will survive the freezing process if not frozen and stored properly. In captive bred rodents, parasites are very rare. When they come from reputable dealers, they are almost non-existent.
This is a guide from the FDA regarding freezing for general parasites in human food: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Gu.../UCM252393.pdf

Well put !
I did not want to have this discussion sway new reptile owners from using frozen thawed feeders. You clarified your response to where I am in agreement. (not that you wanted my approval ha-ha)

From the FDA PDF:

Freezing and storing at an ambient temperature
of -4°F (-20°C) or below for 7 days (total time),
or freezing at an ambient temperature of -31°F
(-35°C) or below until solid and storing at an
ambient temperature of -31°F (-35°C) or below for
15 hours, or freezing at an ambient temperature of
-31°F (-35°C) or below until solid and storing at an
ambient temperature of -4°F (-20°C) or below for
24 hours are sufficient to kill parasites.

Okay, residential freezers are set at -0F or lower. (Ice cream starts to soften at 6F.) So lowering it a few more degrees is simple. I would bet that commercial rodent factories are storing at a lower temperature than that, but typically, the rodents are going to be in your freezer longer than seven days, anyway.

Originally Posted by daddio207

Most of my setup was the same as the big rodent breeders. For me, to keep the room and rodents in sanitary condition required a lot of work.

I still think it depends on the set-up. I had one rack, four tubs of breeders and three holding tubs. I also had four spare tubs. The breeders were cleaned once a week and the holding tubs were cleaned twice a week. Food was placed on the top screening, not in the cage so the only thing that needed to be cleaned was the tub itself. That took a little bleach and a wipe down. Literally took me less than 20min each cleaning day to clean and reset. The biggest headache was making sure there was enough water. I didn't want to risk flooding so I used large rabbit bottles vs a bucket and line set-up.

Originally Posted by daddio207

Any nutrition that's lost in the freezing process is also minimal and has no bearing on the health of the reptile. That said, also with convenience and safety (toothed rodents) in mind makes FT rodents a better option.

That also depends on storage conditions. Oxidation and dehydration still occur on frozen foods. Oxidation destroys many nutrients and dehydration destroys tissues leaving freezer burn. If vacuum sealed, dehydration won't occur, but oxidation still does. In a pinch, I would use frozen. I kept a slew of pinkies in the freezer during hatching season just in case I ran into mouse production issues. I, however, would routinely feed live pinkies to my hatchlings. Anything with teeth was euthanized before feeding.

I have a small mouse colony for access to live pinks since I raise hognose. Without a doubt, the maintenance on 20ish mice is more work than on 60 snakes plus about that many more babies. There are times I'd pay $2 per pink just to not have to deal with them. Or smell them. Even if the cost was somewhat higher, I'd feed thawed to anything that would eat them to not have to deal with mice.

Originally Posted by ipreventdeath

QUOTE=Kat_Dog;1641207]I think F/t stays good for about a year, after that the nutrients start to break down.

I feed all my snakes frozen. Live would be more convenient for me because I breed my own rats, but F/t is much safer than live and helps my conscience.

It depends on how soon they're frozen after death (nutrients begin to break down almost immediately and bacteria will start to colonize), how it is stored (placed in a ziplock bag in the back of your freezer will keep for maybe a month, vacuum sealed lasts muuuuuuch longer) and the thawing process (using hot water can destroy many important enzymes).
I never recommend frozen if you can feed live or fresh-killed. The only reason to feed dead rodents is to prevent injury to your pet. Any rodent with teeth should be killed immediately before feeding. If you object to feeding live rodents without teeth, they can be fresh-killed as well. If you have an issue doing this, buy frozen rodents from a reputable dealer.[/quote]

Since writing that post, my methods have changed.

I have a small supply of frozen in the freezer still, but I don't use it, it's only for if I happen to not have what I need.

At first I was feeding frozen because I wasn't having litters every week, so I didn't have the sizes I needed. I would euthanize the sizes I needed and put it in the freezer so I had it when I needed it.

Now I'm having litters almost every week and selling the extras to people.
I now feed live up to 2.5 weeks, or when the eyes are open. After that, they are no longer immune to co2 and their teeth start coming in, so I pre-kill them.
It's much more convenient to pre-kill prey than to thaw it! Thawing a 150gram rat takes HOURS. Pre-killing a 150 grams rat with co2 only takes a few minutes, and it stays warm so I don't even have to play tricks on my BP

Now all my snakes are on either live babies or pre-killed adults and pups.