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DIY Projects Use this forum to post threads related to home made projects for your corns... Vivariums, hides, decorations, accessories, you name it. Anything to save some bucks or give your personalized touch.

Question on foam and heating
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:40 PM   #1
AdmYrrek
Question on foam and heating

Hey everyone! This has been one of the threads I've been watching and figuratively drooling over for some time. I haven't wanted to post here in the past because I didn't think I was ready to think about the habitat creation part of the snake-getting process, but now I've been to an expo and talked to some breeders so... whee for graduation to DIY thread?

Anyway, I have seen some AWESOME things here. The Aztec temple hide someone posted in here kept me up a few nights just thinking about the engineering and the awesome and how I might do something similar. And so many others have been inspiring in sleep-preventing ways. But there are two things I've been curious about that I have not seen addressed.

Foam (which I understand most of the fun DIY habitat builds are constructed of in part or in full) in an insulation device. And many of the forms of foam I've interacted with are prone to melting. These are a pair of issues I'm concerned about.

Insulation issue: I know there needs to be some buffer between the snake and the UT, but does a tank feature using foam/a foam bottom prevent enough heat from reaching the snake? Conversely, if a feature constructed out of foam has a built in hide, would the insulative nature of the foam make the hide retain too much heat? If you've DIYed tank features with foam before, did you have these issues and if so, what did you do to work around them.

Melting issue: The foam I've interacted with and seen used here (from what I can tell from images) is that sort of plasticky, Styrofoam that can be carved and so on. Very much like the foam items used in making table-top gaming sets/backgrounds/maps/whatever. Having worked with that sort of foam before, I know it is prone to melting and shrinking in heat. If a foam feature is in contact with the bottom of the tank (i.e. separated from the UT by a pane of glass) does it melt? Have you had that issue?

I will start commenting on existing threads with some of these questions since I can ask the creator some specific questions, but I figured I'd start here if anyone had answers or advice on the topic of foam in general. Thanks!
 
Old 08-05-2013, 06:27 PM   #2
Phil1ooo
Hi

I hope this can help answer a few questions having built a few myself which you can see here http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=129565.

Firstly all foam is prone to melting issues, there's no way around that which is why you need to create your feature using the correct materials. Foam is a material which is 10% solid matter and 90% air although it may not seem so when you look at it as it's so compressed. Having said that, although foam is subject to melting it is also an extremely good heat conductor if worked with and setup correctly.

Firstly about my snake (I'm in Australia, different climate) I have 4 hides in my tank which a heat coil on 1/3rd of the tank which covers 1 fully heated hide, 1 half heated hide, and then I have 1 hide high up with no heat and the last hide on the floor with no heat providing the snake with 4 differently heated hides. What I have noticed the snake is always in the middle hide which is purely insulated with foam and no heat. He will sit inside the half heated hide on really really cold days some times. So I figure that he produces his own body heat within the foam. In summer I turn the heaters off as they are not need here at all.

Building your hide; you can create any kind of feature you desire with foam whether it be a hide or some other feature. The important thing is you should always completely cover your foam feature with some sort of protection coating ( I use foam coat & grout) which hardens and is none toxic) and then you can decorate (paint it) as you like. If using water you will also need to use silicone either just before painting (not that great looking) or a very thin coat after your paint is dry (preferred option).

You also should apply a thin coat of sealant over the paint but before the clear silicone for water features.

NOTE; a heat gun creates great affects in forming/shaping your structure.

I hope this helps you.
 
Old 08-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #3
AdmYrrek
Thanks Phil! Your thread has been one I've followed with interest. Your waterfall in the big enclosure is certainly fascinating.

I have a very tall tank I'll be making into a viv for FutureSnake and something I've thought about is making a back "wall" feature that includes a full length hide spanning both temp zones as well as having the opportunity for climb-hides, effectively tunnels up the "wall" feature which would let out higher up. The climb-hides obviously wouldn't be heated beyond the ambient heat in the tank and whatever insulation (either keeping heat in or keeping it out, I don't know) it would provide. I really like the idea for looks and the engineering fun/challenge it would provide, but that heating issue is a concern.

When you have your foam-made features/hides, how do you measure the temps inside of them? Another question for you would be do your foam features touch the bottom of the viv (in cases other than your big outdoor enclosure) and if so, how thick is the base?
 
Old 08-07-2013, 06:26 PM   #4
Phil1ooo
I don't test the temperature of the inside of the hides for the simple reason is he has such a variety that he can use which ever one suits him according to what he feels he needs.
Having said that we are in winter now and he has never used a heated hide and always uses the hide which is highest up and completely unheated.

You have to understand though that our coldest night (lowest temp) we have had here this year in winter is about 10 degrees Celsius and during the day 28 degrees Celsius and in fact last week I turned off the heat coil.

Not sure if all snakes are the same as I feel this one just doesn't like heat at all and much prefers to produce his own body heat.

When you build your snake tank know what size snake you want and provide different size hides as I've noticed with mine he much prefers the smaller tight fitting hides over the more roomy tall hides. Also remember that heat rises so you don't want to heat hides that are off the ground.

I use cat litter in my indoor enclosure, and treated hay in my outdoor enclosure. I did start using cat litter in the outdoor one and thought I'd try something different and found he loves to slide amongst the hey rather than on top of it.

I try to provide a realistic habitat as mush as I can as fake to me looks boring and uninteresting to both me and the snake.

The hey varies in thickness from an inch to in some places 3 inches as it moves around as he move within it. Sometimes he'll sit in the sun amongst the thinner parts and other times he'll curl up under the thicker parts during the day.

my snake has that many different attractions, heat options, hides and tunnels that it makes answering a specific question difficult but what I can say is my snake does much prefer and is much more lively without heaters on and comes out on a daily bases in which inside where the tank is more un-natural (as it was my fist and created base on what I read) he is very very inactive.

have fun creating your tank.

Little advice if your going to build your own feature, know what size or type of snake you want to keep first as you will be very disappointed if you finish building it and find that your snake is wrecking your feature or is unable make use of it because it's to small, narrow or unclimbable.
 
Old 08-22-2013, 11:03 PM   #5
nfafan
My 2cents; been thinking of my foam background for my tank - for cleanliness reasons I am going to tack it to the glass so that it is about an inch or so up above and off the bottom glass/floor. Since it will not be touching the bottom, radiating heat from the UTH will be a non-issue.

Course this means no more hosing out the tank once a month either...
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:53 AM   #6
proileri
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmYrrek View Post
Anyway, I have seen some AWESOME things here. The Aztec temple hide someone posted in here kept me up a few nights just thinking about the engineering and the awesome and how I might do something similar. And so many others have been inspiring in sleep-preventing ways. But there are two things I've been curious about that I have not seen addressed.

Foam (which I understand most of the fun DIY habitat builds are constructed of in part or in full) in an insulation device. And many of the forms of foam I've interacted with are prone to melting. These are a pair of issues I'm concerned about.

Insulation issue: I know there needs to be some buffer between the snake and the UT, but does a tank feature using foam/a foam bottom prevent enough heat from reaching the snake? Conversely, if a feature constructed out of foam has a built in hide, would the insulative nature of the foam make the hide retain too much heat? If you've DIYed tank features with foam before, did you have these issues and if so, what did you do to work around them.

Melting issue: The foam I've interacted with and seen used here (from what I can tell from images) is that sort of plasticky, Styrofoam that can be carved and so on. Very much like the foam items used in making table-top gaming sets/backgrounds/maps/whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil1ooo View Post

Not sure if all snakes are the same as I feel this one just doesn't like heat at all and much prefers to produce his own body heat.
Hey guys, just noticed this thread. Cool stuff, Phil, I can see you are used to working with your hands. And nice to see another gaming nerd on the boards.

Body heat:

Just a small clarification, reptiles produce minimal body heat and that's the point of a warm hide - basically they can't rise their own body temp. Going from 20'C to 30'C temperature boosts chemical and physiological processes such as digesting the food or preparing for a shed significantly.

It's a good thing to have a warm hide available, even if the snake wouldn't use it much. If your day temps are high, you could always use a timer so the UTH is on only during the cool nights.

On foam:

I'm familiar with the foam, I've been using it as a craft material. It's commonly known as expanded polystyrene or EPS. Packing styrofoam is very light form of EPS, the building insulation sheets are a denser version, basically like compressed styrofoam. I think EPS doesn't melt with temperatures associated with UTHs, as UTHs don't get blistering hot. Sure way of testing this would be putting a small piece of foam directly on UTH, maybe a piece of baking paper in between, so if it melts it doesn't stick.

Foam is a very good insulator, so a thick slice of foam underneath a hide would definitely keep the hide cold. A solution is simply to make a hide without a bottom. A cheap thermometer with a wired probe is an easy way to check hide temp - blutack can be used to attach the probe in place.

When I've made foam stuff, I've simply painted it with water-based paints (solvents melt foam surface) and finished them with some water-based clear coat - although a layer of paint would protect the foam from solvent based clear. If you need more protection, for example to make sure you can hose the cage, foam can coated with epoxy resin, as it doesn't melt the foam. I've used silicone to attach foam on glass, and small/removable things can be attached with blutack.

One more thing when making more fancy structures: make sure they're easy to dismantle and clean. On my first structures, my snake managed to poop in most hard to clean crevice there is, and took me 30 minutes to get all the stuff out Now I cover all the cracks, corners and such with thick silicone. Magnets are a good way of attaching halves together, epoxy putty like Milliput can be used for attaching magnets on foam.
 

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