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Natural History/Field Observation Field observations of corn snakes, field collecting, or just general topics about the natural environment they are found in.

CornSnake in the wild.... :)
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Old 12-04-2009, 11:37 PM   #81
dave partington
Thanks Rats n Corns. I remember my 'davesfiles' account username/password. I'd rather keep my real name. ('dave partington') (if kathy and Robbie and a slew of others can be comfortable being who they truly are in real life, so can I). My second ID on this site. Keeps it 'real', so to 'speak'. Got fed up with hiding behind a username that wasn't true to myself. Makes me more "accountable". Thanks for the info. ;D dave partington
 
Old 12-05-2009, 12:31 AM   #82
danielle
Have we all forgot in the wild there are plenty of pathogens as well? I have to say I wouldn't release a native or other non native species into the wild because I believe their chance of survival would be lower and I'm a gymp and would feel bad. All animals carry bacterias and other pathogens whether in the wild or in captivity so the germ theory is just not doing it for me personally. These snakes have been released onto his property in a controled geographic location, and prior were kept in a clean facility unlike their new life in the wild. Sure they could be harboring something, but its nothing thats not already out there- snakes don't get certain illnesses in captivity and others in the wild for the most part bacterias are native to both locations.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 02:02 AM   #83
Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
Hi Dave, I'm new here. With all due respect to you, Rich Z and the rest of his forum's participants- it simply IS irresponsible for Rich to release his captive monstrosities into the wild. In fact, this behavior is illegal in many states. Unfortunately it seems as if many people involved in this thread are just so stubborn and biased in favor of Rich that they will not listen to reason. That's how it appears to me, an impartial observer who knows none of you.
Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of "opinion"?

"Captive monstrosities"? I believe your bias is showing regardless of any actual issues concerning space alien pathogens that might have snuck into my closed collection via airborn particulates from passing comets.

So people are stubborn and unwilling to listen to reason simply because their opinions differ from yours? Therefore yours MUST be the only voice of reason based on that lone fact? Got news for you, fella, impartial observers can be just as incorrect in their beliefs as partial ones can be. Me thinks you need to look up the definition of "impartial", because although you may not know anyone in this discussion (which I rather doubt anyway), your statement aboud "captive monstrosities" most certainly paints you as being partial to whatever you happen to define as "non-monstrosities". So I believe your opinion must be taken within that light of prejudice, regardless of your actual claims to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
I believe that Rich has a responsibility to rid himself of his burden (his excessive snake collection and progeny) through legitimate, responsible means that do not unnecessarily put the native wild population of herps at risk of contracting something from his collection that they aren't prepared for.
And what exactly would be those so-called "legitimate, responsible means" you speak of? And what sort of divergence in genetic heartiness could have possibly taken place in the matter of years that would cause the wild populations of corn snakes to become debilitatingly defenseless against pathogens that are most likely endemic in both populations? By using logic similar to what you are stating here, then releasing human prisoners after they have been locked away for several years or more can be detrimental to the rest of the human population because of some undetermined biological shift that takes place in populations that are not free and unfettered compared to those populations that are freely mobile geographically. Certainly if this were the case, I believe we would have heard about this devastating turn of events long before now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
This IS a matter of interest for all herp enthusiasts because our image is being heavily scrutanized at the moment. The python debacle has been sensationalized by the media and now herpers are being mischaracterized and demonized for the exact same behavior that Rich is guilty of.
Releasing pythons outside of their natural range is in no way similar to releasing corn snakes that are WITHIN their natural range. Sorry, but such a comparison simply defies any attempts at having a rational discussion. Which colors this discussion by your bias once again in trying to forge illogical associations that really do not exist.

BTW, I note that you are using a proxy server in an apparent attempt to hide your real identity. Certainly this doesn't give much credence to your own committment to your opinions. And certainly lends the possibility to the discussion that you are merely someone who has already thrown their hat into the ring here, attempting to support by numbers alone an untenable and unpopular side to a discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
Say what you will about my complaint being idiosynchratic or unsavory in a place where Rich is so popular, the reasoning behind it is obvious whether it's a matter of consensus or not.
Obvious to whom? So the fact that a majority of people may agree with me can simply be blown off as a consensus of Rich Z groupies blindly agreeing with me in face of your own logic and reason? As for my popularity, or lack thereof, I believe that your complaint may simply be "unsavory" based on the "emotional and unsupported by facts" opinion that you have, rather then anything specific to me personally. Claiming that you have cornered the market in logic and reason, and everyone else is a dunderhead because they don't agree with you is really not a proven way to get support for simply a differing opinion.

Tell you what, show me one substantiated instance of a population of corn snakes being decimated because of the actions of someone releasing captive hatched corns into wild populations and you will get my support for your stance. Until you can do that, your OPINION carries absolutely no more weight then someone standing wild-eyed on the corner sporting a sign saying that "The End Is Near!" due to some nebulous and unspecified event.

Fact of the matter is, my OPINION is that you are just personally antagonistic towards anyone working with genetic "monstrosities" under any circumstances, regardless of what the final disposition of them may be. This just happens to be a small bandwagon of convenience at this time for you to jump onto.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 02:04 AM   #84
Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielle View Post
Have we all forgot in the wild there are plenty of pathogens as well? I have to say I wouldn't release a native or other non native species into the wild because I believe their chance of survival would be lower and I'm a gymp and would feel bad. All animals carry bacterias and other pathogens whether in the wild or in captivity so the germ theory is just not doing it for me personally. These snakes have been released onto his property in a controled geographic location, and prior were kept in a clean facility unlike their new life in the wild. Sure they could be harboring something, but its nothing thats not already out there- snakes don't get certain illnesses in captivity and others in the wild for the most part bacterias are native to both locations.
Heck, I dunno, but if I were to get a wild caught corn snake to add to my population, would placing them into quarantine be to protect IT from the possible pathogens in my own collection, or to protect MY COLLECTION from possible pathogens that the wild caught may harbor?
 
Old 12-05-2009, 04:07 AM   #85
Crotalus
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave partington View Post
Just curious here, do you have another ID by which by we know you as? Seeing you've made 3 posts to this site under this ID, the first being on this thread. A little credibility goes a long way, something I discovered under my first ID on this site, 'davesfiles'.
Dave- I don't have any other accounts on this site and my only psuedonym here is Crotalus (because seriously, rattlesnakes are the coolest organism to ever grace the cosmos, right?). I have a little university history in the biological sciences but nothing that would lend any credibility to my claims. I think they're pretty much self evident unless someone has a valid reason to refute them (and can make an absolute guarantee that transferring pathogens is not a risk).
 
Old 12-05-2009, 08:44 AM   #86
RobbiesCornField
So... what about the endangered animal repopulation programs? Some endangered animal species are captive bred in zoos, raised up a bit, and then released in the wild to help raise their numbers. I know that's not an issue with the corn snake, but really, what's the difference? Either way, you're taking an animal that was bred in captivity and releasing it into the wild in it's own natural range.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 09:05 AM   #87
Shaky
Seems that there are 2 basic camps in this debate, but I haven't heard any proof either way.

I suppose releasing them has an unknown potential of harm, whatever that may be, but which has not yet manifested. Perhaps time will tell, and people will cry, "I told you so!"

The argument against release seems based on the aforementioned potential. I guess it's based on the historical evidence that many human interventions have been deleterious. (Plus the many posts that have stated that its a terrible idea to release captive snakes back into the wild, again using potential as the basis.)
Since feelings and parroting warnings seem to play a big part in this debate, I find that I lean to the side that says, "No Big Deal."

Wouldn't it be a great opportunity for study, though? I bet someone would just love to get out there and monitor the fluctuations. It will be extremely interesting to see the corns in the area after twenty years or so.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 03:29 PM   #88
Crotalus
"Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of "opinion"?"

The same one that's found in the Oxford English Dictionary.

"'Captive monstrosities'? I believe your bias is showing regardless of any actual issues concerning space alien pathogens that might have snuck into my closed collection via airborn particulates from passing comets."

Yes, I am biased. I'm not a huge fan of certain parts of the herpetoculture industry such as the manipulation of breeding for cosmetic purposes. I don't claim any validity in this opinion other than to state that it's a personal preference and fondness that I have for the animal itself and in its natural state. You and other herpetolculturists ought to be free to create, sell and proffit from these monstrosities, but I don't have to like it. I support the herpetolculture industry nontheless.

"So people are stubborn and unwilling to listen to reason simply because their opinions differ from yours?"

No, it's because their opinion supports irresponsible behavior and because they are demonstrating a greater bias than the one that you accused me of above. This is obvious to me, an outside observer who has nothing to lose or gain by supporting or not supporting you.


"Therefore yours MUST be the only voice of reason based on that lone fact?"

You're just being silly. That's an entirely invalid conclusion drawn from an argument that I never made (a strawman).

"Got news for you, fella, impartial observers can be just as incorrect in their beliefs as partial ones can be."

Agreed, but what does that have to do with the validity or invalidity of my criticism of your irresponsibility?

"Me thinks you need to look up the definition of "impartial", because although you may not know anyone in this discussion (which I rather doubt anyway), your statement aboud "captive monstrosities" most certainly paints you as being partial to whatever you happen to define as "non-monstrosities". So I believe your opinion must be taken within that light of prejudice, regardless of your actual claims to the contrary."

I can see where you could think that, but my opinion that many cosmetic breeding projects are unsavory is irrelevant to the conversation, my claim of impartiality was meant to establish that I have no axe to grind with you personally. This is important on message boards because often times a good honest point is obfuscated by personal issues that create a distraction.
My opinion about color morphs has nothing to do with my opinion about your irresponsibility.


"And what exactly would be those so-called "legitimate, responsible means" you speak of? "

I would assume that anyone well established in the breeding industry would know how to get rid of these animals. One way to do it, as unfortunate as it seems, is to euthanize them. You could also give them to coral snake owners as feeders, things of this nature. The point is that you created the problem of excess offspring, you should be able to find a solution that minimizes risk at all costs.

"And what sort of divergence in genetic heartiness could have possibly taken place in the matter of years that would cause the wild populations of corn snakes to become debilitatingly defenseless against pathogens that are most likely endemic in both populations?"

Not sure, but do you know that there is absolutely no risk? Of course not. I wouldn't even have mentioned any of this is I didn't think the risk was serious enough to justify it. However several states have used hard scientific evidence to enact law changes to reflect the seriousness of this risk- are you certain that your state hasn't outlawed it?

"By using logic similar to what you are stating here, then releasing human prisoners after they have been locked away for several years or more can be detrimental to the rest of the human population because of some undetermined biological shift that takes place in populations that are not free and unfettered compared to those populations that are freely mobile geographically. Certainly if this were the case, I believe we would have heard about this devastating turn of events long before now."

This analogy is hard to take seriously Rich. But since you mentioned it, I don't think the comparison works very well because the amount of unknown variables is radically higher in the sitatuation with the corn snakes. I have no experience with the prison system, but I would imagine that the health standards within them are at least at a standard that attempts to reduce pathogens etc. After all, the O.S.H.A. and the F.D.A. both have their hands in inspecting prison facilities, this I do know.


"Releasing pythons outside of their natural range is in no way similar to releasing corn snakes that are WITHIN their natural range. Sorry, but such a comparison simply defies any attempts at having a rational discussion. Which colors this discussion by your bias once again in trying to forge illogical associations that really do not exist."

Please don't try to instruct me on logic. No offense, but you've made quite a few obviously illogical statements already in the quotes above. I'm wondering if you misunderstood my post. I made no formal connection between the python debacle and you other than to remind everyone that herpers are being scrutanized, demonized and misrepresented all over the place. I don't expect that your corn snake releases are going to reign in a bunch of bad publicity, but I do think that conversations like these ought to happen more so that our entire hobbyist group can establish some ethical standards from within rather than have them forced on us by the government.

"BTW, I note that you are using a proxy server in an apparent attempt to hide your real identity. Certainly this doesn't give much credence to your own committment to your opinions. And certainly lends the possibility to the discussion that you are merely someone who has already thrown their hat into the ring here, attempting to support by numbers alone an untenable and unpopular side to a discussion."

Rich the fact that you stated so declaratively that I'm "using a proxy server in an apparent attempt to hide [my] real identity" honestly makes me chuckle a bit. It really is comedic because I did no such thing. If I have a proxy server, I can assure you that I did nothing purposefully to get it (don't even know what it is) nor did I design anything to deceive anyone about who I am.

Who I am doesn't matter. I think the attention that this subject (my identity) is getting stems from the nature of sites like this that participate in BOI-type message boards; everything remotely contentious becomes a witch hunt and a personal battle to the reptutative DEATH! I've peeked a little at the things that go on in places like the BOI and all I can do is sit back and shake my head as I see people hate each other over misunderstandings, egos and bullsh*t. It really shatters this hobby in my opinion. I'll have no part in that thank you very much. I would like my identity to remain annonymous (it's not like any of you know me anyhow).

"Obvious to whom? So the fact that a majority of people may agree with me can simply be blown off as a consensus of Rich Z groupies blindly agreeing with me in face of your own logic and reason?"

That's not how I would have put it, but sure.

"As for my popularity, or lack thereof, I believe that your complaint may simply be "unsavory" based on the "emotional and unsupported by facts" opinion that you have, rather then anything specific to me personally."

I don't mean to personally disparage you. I'm making reference to your behaviors as irresponsible and I chalk it up to a lapse in judgment or even a mistake in knowledge. I don't think it's a character flaw or personal problem. I know it seems like this conversation is about you letting corn snakes go into the wild, but it's really about you taking an unnecessary risk. No matter how hard you try to diminish the risk, you cannot fully escape it and to my knowledge it's high enough to warrant a long post like this to discuss it.

"Tell you what, show me one substantiated instance of a population of corn snakes being decimated because of the actions of someone releasing captive hatched corns into wild populations and you will get my support for your stance. Until you can do that, your OPINION carries absolutely no more weight then someone standing wild-eyed on the corner sporting a sign saying that "The End Is Near!" due to some nebulous and unspecified event."

I can't. Even if there were such a substantiated instance, I wouldn't put forth the effort to find it because my part of this discussion is more relevent to ethics than it is scientific evidence. It is unethical to release your captive born animals based on the principle that taking such a risk is unnecessary.

"Fact of the matter is, my OPINION is that you are just personally antagonistic towards anyone working with genetic "monstrosities" under any circumstances, regardless of what the final disposition of them may be. This just happens to be a small bandwagon of convenience at this time for you to jump onto."

I understand that you're probably irritated with me, but I would never invest even a second of my time or one molecule of my energy into a thread on a website that has no value to me over something so idiosynchratic and minute as my distaste for color morphs. I don't even care what color morphs are out there because I'm not even remotely interested. I also don't like Nissan cars and trucks because they are crap, but that doesn't mean that I go around to Nissan message boards in a giant conspiracy to misrepresent and slander Nissan users. Get me?

I'm not on a bandwagon and this isn't about me, it's about this hobby and the attitude of the people within it. Unfortunately due to this type of ubiquitous hubris, herpetoculture is threatened by the government and we have no organization from which to defend ourselves. Because there is such division due to giant inflated egos, we can't get organized and therefore can't combine resources to lobby in behalf of ourselves like organizations such as PETA have been so successful in doing. This isn't necessarily directed right at you Rick, but it's directed toward this attitude that once you get to a certain number of years in this business you're immune to correction.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 03:31 PM   #89
Crotalus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaky View Post
Seems that there are 2 basic camps in this debate, but I haven't heard any proof either way.

I suppose releasing them has an unknown potential of harm, whatever that may be, but which has not yet manifested. Perhaps time will tell, and people will cry, "I told you so!"

The argument against release seems based on the aforementioned potential. I guess it's based on the historical evidence that many human interventions have been deleterious. (Plus the many posts that have stated that its a terrible idea to release captive snakes back into the wild, again using potential as the basis.)
Since feelings and parroting warnings seem to play a big part in this debate, I find that I lean to the side that says, "No Big Deal."

Wouldn't it be a great opportunity for study, though? I bet someone would just love to get out there and monitor the fluctuations. It will be extremely interesting to see the corns in the area after twenty years or so.
It's not just about the presence of the potential, it's about the degree of the potential. The degree is high enough that many states have enacted law changes to represent the high degree of risk.
 
Old 12-05-2009, 03:38 PM   #90
danielle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Heck, I dunno, but if I were to get a wild caught corn snake to add to my population, would placing them into quarantine be to protect IT from the possible pathogens in my own collection, or to protect MY COLLECTION from possible pathogens that the wild caught may harbor?
Exactly my point nature is a lot dirtier than the controled environment of a facility.
 

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