Do Corn Snakes Love?

I think I have to disagree with the majority here, at least on the nature of "human" emotions and their specificity to the species <i>homo sapiens</i>. I don't think of us humans as <i>that</i> set apart from the rest of the multicellular organisms on the planet (except for the loyalties that come from being <i>my</i> species). We aren't even "more evolved" than other animals, as we've all been evolving for the same amount of time through similar stimuli.

That said, it is the case that other animals experience different internal and cognitive states than us, but there are certainly similarities. Emotions are probably among the most "primitive" internal states that stand out to us humans. You can be completely uneducated or even "unintelligent" and still know what it is to experience emotions, even love. I would even go so far as to say emotions and instincts are very likely the same thing. Take the emotion "fear" and consider whether it seems particularly rational, or perhaps instinctive. It is accompanied by an explainable set of physiological and chemical responses and often seems that the onset is faster than the conscious realization of the stimulus that produced it.

The name assigned to any emotional state is so subjective that I personally would prefer not to argue against an individual person who assigns the word "love" to their emotional state. Of course, our non verbal cousin species can't typically do that.

Lacking any direct experience of an organisms internal state, be that thoughts or emotions or basic sensory processing, I would take a behaviorist approach. Define a set of behaviors that you expect for a given emotional tag, say "love." Does a subjects behavior "match" (and then the algorithm used to determine a match is subjective as well, could be all characteristics, could be majority, could be something else)? If so, then why not assign it that tag? Even speech in lingual humans can be classified as behavior and analyzed in this way. I know of no other way really to assess another beings internal state, as there is no way to get around your own interface with the external world.

That said, you may well assign the emotional tag "love" to your pet snake. The original poster did in fact enumerate a list of behaviors expressed by the snake. Whether they match the behaviors expected from a human is not necessarily relevant.

Originally Posted by Hexadeci

I think I have to disagree with the majority here, at least on the nature of "human" emotions and their specificity to the species <i>homo sapiens</i>. I don't think of us humans as <i>that</i> set apart from the rest of the multicellular organisms on the planet (except for the loyalties that come from being <i>my</i> species). We aren't even "more evolved" than other animals, as we've all been evolving for the same amount of time through similar stimuli.

That said, it is the case that other animals experience different internal and cognitive states than us, but there are certainly similarities. Emotions are probably among the most "primitive" internal states that stand out to us humans. You can be completely uneducated or even "unintelligent" and still know what it is to experience emotions, even love. I would even go so far as to say emotions and instincts are very likely the same thing. Take the emotion "fear" and consider whether it seems particularly rational, or perhaps instinctive. It is accompanied by an explainable set of physiological and chemical responses and often seems that the onset is faster than the conscious realization of the stimulus that produced it.

The name assigned to any emotional state is so subjective that I personally would prefer not to argue against an individual person who assigns the word "love" to their emotional state. Of course, our non verbal cousin species can't typically do that.

Lacking any direct experience of an organisms internal state, be that thoughts or emotions or basic sensory processing, I would take a behaviorist approach. Define a set of behaviors that you expect for a given emotional tag, say "love." Does a subjects behavior "match" (and then the algorithm used to determine a match is subjective as well, could be all characteristics, could be majority, could be something else)? If so, then why not assign it that tag? Even speech in lingual humans can be classified as behavior and analyzed in this way. I know of no other way really to assess another beings internal state, as there is no way to get around your own interface with the external world.

That said, you may well assign the emotional tag "love" to your pet snake. The original poster did in fact enumerate a list of behaviors expressed by the snake. Whether they match the behaviors expected from a human is not necessarily relevant.

I think brain science is a very objective way to research emotions, and since they found out where compliance with primary needs (food, safety, reproduction) is regulated (the so called reptile brain), and emotions are regulated in a brain part a snake does not have, a snake does not have emotions. Looking at it like this, it is quite black and white.

Instincts (as in; how to take care of myself and life an optimal life) are in the blue print of an organism, and the need to follow these instincts make any organism do what it needs to do. But, instinctcs are regulated by intelligence in intelligent beings. I think the combination of instincts and intelligence causes emotions. Example; feeling hungry is not an emotion, but when you cooked a complicated meal and people don't like it, you feel bad (not being appreciated). If people around you tease you with hamburgers when you are very hungry but don't give you one, you'll get angry; another emotion, yet the hunger still is caused by an instinct.

More complicated organisms with larger brains also develop more complicated needs (top two layers of the Maslow pyramid). Their intelligence in combination with needs cause emotions to appear (I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel lonely, I feel not appreciated, I am bored ).

Another example of the difference I see; when a snake hides for a predator, he just hides and comes out when it is gone, probably being more alert for a while because of the flight hormones in its body. But it won't cry or keep feeling scared for long. However, if he is handled by the human predator many times without being eaten, an imprint in the brain tells it there is no need to be scared anymore when handled. Yet when not handled for a long time, instinct might kick in again and ruin that imprint.

Another ecample: when a man meets a stranger, usually he is not scared of the stranger, until the strangers gets an axe and attacks the man. Then the flight/fight hormones start running and the man fights or runs off, because he quickly analyses the situation and starts feeling scared. A baby would not be scared of a person with an axe because this type of fear is not caused by instincts but by experience and learning about how the world works. That is an emotion IMO.

Originally Posted by Forcedexile

well tbh until people learn to actually speak to animals, i'll believe that humans invented emotions and only humans feel emotions.

first we must define emotion:

e·mo·tion
   [ih-moh-shuhn]

noun
1.
an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2.
any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3.
any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.


--so by definition a lot of animals, including snakes feel emotions. animals feel fear, grief/sorrow, (which would imply some kind of love, right?), hate (debateable), anger, aggitation, nervousness, stress, etc. etc.

"usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking."
well when animals including snakes are scared, aggitated, or comfortable dont they show certain physiological changes? like the increased heartbeat and respiration when they are upset/nervous/stressed. dont animals show aggitation or anger by showing their teeth, rattling their tail, biting, growling, hissing, scratching etc. some animals show affection by nuzzling you, licking you, laying on you, and being so excited they can hardly contain themselves when you arrive home after being gone, etc.

i guess my point is animals are capable of some types of emotions. also humans didnt invent emotions, they just "exist", just as humans didnt invent fire. snakes loving though? no, im afraid i dont believe so. coming out when youre around is more of a sign of curiousity of whats going on around them.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

I think brain science is a very objective way to research emotions, and since they found out where compliance with primary needs (food, safety, reproduction) is regulated (the so called reptile brain), and emotions are regulated in a brain part a snake does not have, a snake does not have emotions. Looking at it like this, it is quite black and white.

Instincts (as in; how to take care of myself and life an optimal life) are in the blue print of an organism, and the need to follow these instincts make any organism do what it needs to do. But, instinctcs are regulated by intelligence in intelligent beings. I think the combination of instincts and intelligence causes emotions. Example; feeling hungry is not an emotion, but when you cooked a complicated meal and people don't like it, you feel bad (not being appreciated). If people around you tease you with hamburgers when you are very hungry but don't give you one, you'll get angry; another emotion, yet the hunger still is caused by an instinct.

More complicated organisms with larger brains also develop more complicated needs (top two layers of the Maslow pyramid). Their intelligence in combination with needs cause emotions to appear (I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel lonely, I feel not appreciated, I am bored ).

Another example of the difference I see; when a snake hides for a predator, he just hides and comes out when it is gone, probably being more alert for a while because of the flight hormones in its body. But it won't cry or keep feeling scared for long. However, if he is handled by the human predator many times without being eaten, an imprint in the brain tells it there is no need to be scared anymore when handled. Yet when not handled for a long time, instinct might kick in again and ruin that imprint.

Another ecample: when a man meets a stranger, usually he is not scared of the stranger, until the strangers gets an axe and attacks the man. Then the flight/fight hormones start running and the man fights or runs off, because he quickly analyses the situation and starts feeling scared. A baby would not be scared of a person with an axe because this type of fear is not caused by instincts but by experience and learning about how the world works. That is an emotion IMO.

very good perspective on the subject, and good points you made =]

Thanks visceral

Originally Posted by visceralrepulsion

first we must define emotion:

e·mo·tion
   [ih-moh-shuhn]

noun
1.
an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2.
any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3.
any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.


--so by definition a lot of animals, including snakes feel emotions. animals feel fear, grief/sorrow, (which would imply some kind of love, right?), hate (debateable), anger, aggitation, nervousness, stress, etc. etc.

"usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking."
well when animals including snakes are scared, aggitated, or comfortable dont they show certain physiological changes? like the increased heartbeat and respiration when they are upset/nervous/stressed. dont animals show aggitation or anger by showing their teeth, rattling their tail, biting, growling, hissing, scratching etc. some animals show affection by nuzzling you, licking you, laying on you, and being so excited they can hardly contain themselves when you arrive home after being gone, etc.

i guess my point is animals are capable of some types of emotions. also humans didnt invent emotions, they just "exist", just as humans didnt invent fire. snakes loving though? no, im afraid i dont believe so. coming out when youre around is more of a sign of curiousity of whats going on around them.

whatevs. i'm done having a discussion where no one knows the correct answer to. like i said...until i can get an English to snake dictionary, i'll believe that only humans feel emotions.

and just a side note to everyone. the question was "Do snakes feel love?". answering that with anything that has to do with another animal is irrelevant. I dont care if your dog or cat loves you, its not a snake. and if you want to call feeling safe around you love as someone did somewhere in this thread, then my goldfish must love me tons.

I personally don't believe snakes love. But I do believe dogs love. My dogs do love me, I know it and that's what matters to me.

On the mating for life thing. There are some species that will go find another mate upon the death/dissapearance of the one they have been with. However, there are species that won't.

Wolves mate for life, if/when one dies or is beaten and evicted from the pack, the other will either go off alone (mate dies) or leave the pack with his/her mate. They do not find another and start over. This seems particular to wolves as other wild canine species will find another mate and start over.

Bald Eagles also mate for life and do not go find another mate, that was one of the reasons the protection effort was so important when their numbers dropped alarmingly because one death meant 2 losses to the breeding pool.

Originally Posted by Forcedexile

whatevs. i'm done having a discussion where no one knows the correct answer to. like i said...until i can get an English to snake dictionary, i'll believe that only humans feel emotions.

and just a side note to everyone. the question was "Do snakes feel love?". answering that with anything that has to do with another animal is irrelevant. I dont care if your dog or cat loves you, its not a snake. and if you want to call feeling safe around you love as someone did somewhere in this thread, then my goldfish must love me tons.

You know until the proof does come in, this is all a matter of personal opinion, and everyone is allowed to have theirs. Yours is that only humans can feel emotions, mine differs. No one is asking you to beleive our opinions on the matter, please don't expect us to just take yours.

Originally Posted by Forcedexile

whatevs. i'm done having a discussion where no one knows the correct answer to. like i said...until i can get an English to snake dictionary, i'll believe that only humans feel emotions.

and just a side note to everyone. the question was "Do snakes feel love?". answering that with anything that has to do with another animal is irrelevant. I dont care if your dog or cat loves you, its not a snake. and if you want to call feeling safe around you love as someone did somewhere in this thread, then my goldfish must love me tons.

YOU said animals dont feel emotions, you didnt say SNAKES. so you opened the door to this discussion. and you cant argue with proven facts like for example the fact the elephants experience sorrow and grief when a family member or "friend" dies. so be insolent, sarcastic and closeminded all you like, it just truly shows you are not wiser than your years. but to respond like you did wont get you anywhere, and it certainly wont earn you any education. you can say 'im done with this discussion' because youve been proven wrong, its okay, id be embarrassed too. why cant you have a civil discussion and not a black or white debate? are you too set in your own opinions that you can accept others perspectives, facts, and knowledge? if so thats pretty sad, you wont get far in life thinking the world revolves around you.

What do we know for sure about love? We know it's an emotion. What are emotions? Emotions are chemical changes in the body triggered by external stimuli. Adrenaline is produced during fight or flight, estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, are produced during times of need to procreate, etc... Now these are a couple of the chemicals in humans but all animals have chemical changes triggered by external stimuli. Even insects have them. So one can conclude that snakes like everything else living feel emotion based on their chemical changes. I think snakes feel a type of love but not like human's do. We have advanced brains that give us unique skills like loyalty, compassion, empathy and we have the free will to use them for our own purposes. Snakes may not have advanced brains but they do have emotions and I believe they have the ability to bond with us because we become part of their environment and they begin to recognize us as a necessary part of that environment.