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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

How are GOLDENS "any" different than Caramels?
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Old 11-20-2018, 01:20 AM   #21
Twolunger
The Murdock corner where Murdock Circle meets Highway 41 has a grove of large trees that are a prime hawk nesting area. The hawks will dive bomb you if you walk near their nests, and the city put up a sign to warn you. Any snake around that area would be hawk food. I saw a hawk grab a snake last week, but couldn't identify it. Traffic is non-stop around Murdock. I have a feeling any Indigo surviving would have had to relocate to the wilds of North Port nearby. I haven't searched that area in quite some time, but will try this week.
 
Old 11-20-2018, 04:33 AM   #22
Rich Z
Interestingly enough, I caught a female corn at the old abandoned cement facility that used to be at the Murdock intersection of 776 and 41 that turned out to be carrying the gene for Lavender. Actually called it "Mocha" at first because the babies tended to be a light chocolate colored at hatching. Again, never heard of a wild caught Lavender turning up in that area. Looking at a Google map, looks like there is a Denny's right where that cement place used to be located. 776 used to dead end right there at 41.

When I produced all normals from breeding her to a snow corn on the first generation, I only kept a single pair, if I remember correctly. First year breeding them together, all eggs but one went bad. That one egg hatched and was the very first Lavender produced. I believe the female died eggbound, and remember thinking that I was pretty much stuck in having any chance of producing another one if that one Lavender had died. But evidently those normal het carriers I sold off did produce Lavender for at least one other person (Dan Thomasco?) in Pennsylvania where they had eventually turned up one way or another.

Kind of interesting how HUGELY luck can play into new genes turning up.
 
Old 11-20-2018, 11:03 AM   #23
Twolunger
You won't find any corns in that area now, unless they are trying to warm up on the asphalt. Two cement facilities started up a little further past the intersection. I don't know how long they have been there, but I tried herping around them and found that it was too dry, due to the lime or what else they are using to make cement. I did travel around the neighborhoods all the way to I-75, but only found black racers or garter snakes. It's funny, I have looked under pieces of old metal roofing, signs that had blown down, pieces of plywood and other boards, and have not found a single snake under them. I assumed those would be prime cover during the heat of the day for a snake, but no such luck.
 
Old 11-20-2018, 12:03 PM   #24
Rich Z
When Connie and I lived in Maryland, we would vacation down in Englewood in May and September. Mostly cruising the roads around that Murdock area in the mornings and evenings. What we discovered was that as soon as it got warm enough for the black racers to become active in the morning and spotted on the roads, it was time to head back to the motel and hit the beach. All of the more sensible snakes were retiring to cooler areas for the day.

As for road cruising at night, we never did have much luck with that, and is extremely boring when you aren't seeing anything on the roads.

I guess between developers paving over Florida from one end to the other, and fire ants being a severe problem for egg-laying reptiles, yeah, it's pretty tough on Florida's herps.
 
Old 11-20-2018, 12:31 PM   #25
Twolunger
I have only seen black racers and rattlesnakes moving around in the heat. The other snakes seem to start moving around about an hour before dusk. I have seen yellow rat snakes crossing the road at night though. I just came in from a long bike ride, and walking through the brush and didn't see a single snake. It's cool and overcast, so I thought something might be moving.
 
Old 12-19-2018, 07:46 PM   #26
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Just to clarify a detail concerning the history of the Caramel gene.

The original animal that produce the Caramel gene for me was a wild caught NORMAL looking adult female purchased from a pet shop in Cape Coral, Florida. The reason I purchased this animal out of all the rest there was because of it's unusual straw colored background color. I discussed the source of the animals with the owner who verified that those were all wild caught animals brought in from local collectors. Matter of fact, a friend of mine, Tim Hoen, was with me at the time we visited that pet shop. What was interesting was that we both looked into that tank with the corn snakes, and both said "Wow! Look at that one!" at the same time, but reached in and grabbed two different animals that caught our eyes. His did not catch my eye, and mine did not catch his eye. People just see different things in animals, I guess. I was looking for corns to use in breeding projects based on their color combined with, at that time, the ONLY color altering genes available for the corn snake: Amelanism and Anerythrism. I don't believe that Bill and Kathy Love had come up with Hypomelanism yet at that time.

Anyway, the inferred theory posted in this thread that the animal could have been from a captive breeding program sort of falls apart when the fact is realized that there was never another animal offered or known of similar in appearance to the Caramel gene prior to my producing the original Caramels and Butters.

Could the pet shop owner have been lying to me about the source of that animal? Certainly! Quite frankly, unless you catch an animal yourself out in the wild, you are always going to be at the mercy of the honesty of the person selling you an animal as to it's actual and truthful source. And had other Caramel looking animals shown up in the market around the same time, I would have to say that this would be pretty clear evidence of the possibility of a parallel breeding project being done by another breeder working with this uncovered gene. But since that did not happen, to the best of my knowledge, I feel pretty safe in saying that I believe that pet shop owner's story. If there is evidence otherwise, I am all ears....

So, I had bred that wild caught female carrier with a snow corn in the hopes that from an area nearby known for wild caught Anerythristics, perhaps anerythrism was lurking in her gene pool. And I also wanted to see what that straw colored background would do when combined with Amelanism. All normals hatched out, which at the time seemed unfortunate, but I kept several anyway and when I bred THEM together, that is when I hatched out what I eventually named the "Caramel Corns" and the "Butter Corns".

Of course, I did testing with that Caramel gene to Anerythrism to make certain that it just was not an odd variation of Anerythrism. The Caramel corns were only slightly different looking than Anerythristic at hatching, so it actually took a few sheds before I realized they could possibly be something different. As for the Butter Corns, well, I just though that the yellowish looking ones were a result of the straw colored background that existed in the original female that produced this line. Honestly, I came VERY close to selling off the entire batch of them before I realized that I had something very different.
Sounds good to me.

Back then, Visual Selecting new looking phenotypes, was the method you used, as I remember. We didn't figure out the genetics of many of our current Mutant genes, one at a time, as they were discovered.

I bought quite a few Corn Snakes from you, such as Lavenders, Opals, Crimsons, Butter Motleys and Striped Butters, just to name a few. I produced the first Striped Lavender, from Lavenders I produced from you, and the first Striped Opals, the same way.

I learned more and more about the genetics of our Corns, each and every year, I have been breeding them. When I bred a Amel Striped X Lavender, I produced lots of different phenotypes of Amels het Striped Lavender and "Normals" het Striped Amel Lavender.

When I bred Amel het Striped Lavender x Normal het Striped Opal, I saw many different phenotypes, that are reproducible today, but did it register completely? Not really.

I lucked into the Lava gene from Okeetees. I figured out how to create new combines, so I bred a Lava Okeetee x Butter Motley and Lava Okeetee X Striped Butter. The results surprised me, but revealed a lot.

The resulting F1 crosses produced "Normals" het Lava Butter Motley and "Normals" het Lava Striped Butter. My Lava Okeetees were changed in F1 to Borderless RedCoat Yellow Jackets het Lava Butter Motley and so on.

Was the Tessera gene the first Dominant gene discovered and described in our Corns, no way. I have produced much better threads than this about my results, no blame is expressed or implied.

If you selectively breed a mutant gene such as Lavender, Motley, Caramel, Butter and so on and on, you may never see what genes you are visually selecting for.

Is Border-less and Yellow Jacket as I have described many times on this forum, and The Source dominant genes? Absolutely, Did Rich Z knowingly, do anything other than visually selectively breed his Corns, to produce new phenotypes. We all used the Corn Snakes that were available to us, and believed what we were told about their histories.

I was involved in the Hypo Test Breeding Project, due discovering the Lava Gene. Chuck Pritzel finished off my understanding of Corn Snake Genes and how they are inherited, and I have never slowed down from there.

My Truth may not agree with yours, but there is much to learn about Corn Snake Genetics. I blame the Border-less gene on "Sunglows" which were produced with Hypos, but the Hypo gene is not needed to produce Border-less Amels, just the Border-less gene.

Just because the Border-less gene and Yellow Jacket genes are dominant, dose not mean that they can not be selectively bred out of lines. Het Dom x Het Dom, and 1 in 4 does not carry the gene, but you have to have this in mind.

If you breed any line that is het Border-less, and like what it does to pattern of Motley, soon you will have homo Border-less Butter Motleys. If you like what YJ does to Butter and so on, you can end up with homo Border-less YJ Butter Motleys easily. If you like what RC YJ and Border-less does to the Phenotype of Butter Motleys, then that is what you will end up by visually selecting your results.

Can you see Caramels as Het? No, but you can see YJ as het, so a het YJ Caramel will look very yellow. Yellow Jacket has changed just about every Corn Snake Phenotype we have to a lighter Phenotype. Didn't everybody keep back the lighter looking phenotypes in clutches back then.

Are Lavenders, YJ Mochas, I believe so. Are Pewters, YJ Charcoal Bloods, I believe so. The list goes on and on.

Why did I call them Yellow Jackets, because I have been stung by them, and since it is a dominant gene, when it is in your mix, it has an effect on just about everything. The same is true of Border-less.

These two dominant genes have been in our Corn Snake Gene Pool ever since I have breed Corns, long before we learned much about the genetics of our Corns.

Until Chuck Pritzel, Corn Snake Genetics was a little confusing, but I have learn much since then, LIKE:

It is impossible for me to be Politically Correct, if my truth differs from the results I see in my clutches.

I took 5 hours the other day and did some searches on this cite. I searched for Tessera and Palmetto and selected the most views and then the most posts. I read through all of them, and I see a lot of Politically Correct Post.

I will admit, that I have respectfully disagreed with many "Truths" about our Corn Snake Gens, and have received the same treatment as Trump, by the Drive By Media.

Who proved out what a Motley Tesesra is? Me. It was called a Striped Tessera for a long time. How did I figure it out, because I understand what alleles are.

I do not believe our Corn Snakes are "Pure" Corn, ever since I have been breeding Corns, but it is not the "Politically Correct" Truth, and you may respectfully disagree or hate me, but I can figure out problems and questions about just about anything like no other.

My search for Truth has caused problems in all aspects of my life. Everybody HATES to be told their truth may be wrong, and everybody HATES it even more when you try to correct them.

I have been wrong about many things in my life, mainly by just believing my teachers. When I learned that much of what I believed was false and flipped it over to the truth, it changes your life.
 
Old 12-20-2018, 12:18 AM   #27
Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj View Post
Sounds good to me.

Back then, Visual Selecting new looking phenotypes, was the method you used, as I remember. We didn't figure out the genetics of many of our current Mutant genes, one at a time, as they were discovered.

I bought quite a few Corn Snakes from you, such as Lavenders, Opals, Crimsons, Butter Motleys and Striped Butters, just to name a few. I produced the first Striped Lavender, from Lavenders I produced from you, and the first Striped Opals, the same way.

I learned more and more about the genetics of our Corns, each and every year, I have been breeding them. When I bred a Amel Striped X Lavender, I produced lots of different phenotypes of Amels het Striped Lavender and "Normals" het Striped Amel Lavender.

When I bred Amel het Striped Lavender x Normal het Striped Opal, I saw many different phenotypes, that are reproducible today, but did it register completely? Not really.

I lucked into the Lava gene from Okeetees. I figured out how to create new combines, so I bred a Lava Okeetee x Butter Motley and Lava Okeetee X Striped Butter. The results surprised me, but revealed a lot.

The resulting F1 crosses produced "Normals" het Lava Butter Motley and "Normals" het Lava Striped Butter. My Lava Okeetees were changed in F1 to Borderless RedCoat Yellow Jackets het Lava Butter Motley and so on.

Was the Tessera gene the first Dominant gene discovered and described in our Corns, no way. I have produced much better threads than this about my results, no blame is expressed or implied.

If you selectively breed a mutant gene such as Lavender, Motley, Caramel, Butter and so on and on, you may never see what genes you are visually selecting for.

Is Border-less and Yellow Jacket as I have described many times on this forum, and The Source dominant genes? Absolutely, Did Rich Z knowingly, do anything other than visually selectively breed his Corns, to produce new phenotypes. We all used the Corn Snakes that were available to us, and believed what we were told about their histories.

I was involved in the Hypo Test Breeding Project, due discovering the Lava Gene. Chuck Pritzel finished off my understanding of Corn Snake Genes and how they are inherited, and I have never slowed down from there.

My Truth may not agree with yours, but there is much to learn about Corn Snake Genetics. I blame the Border-less gene on "Sunglows" which were produced with Hypos, but the Hypo gene is not needed to produce Border-less Amels, just the Border-less gene.

Just because the Border-less gene and Yellow Jacket genes are dominant, dose not mean that they can not be selectively bred out of lines. Het Dom x Het Dom, and 1 in 4 does not carry the gene, but you have to have this in mind.

If you breed any line that is het Border-less, and like what it does to pattern of Motley, soon you will have homo Border-less Butter Motleys. If you like what YJ does to Butter and so on, you can end up with homo Border-less YJ Butter Motleys easily. If you like what RC YJ and Border-less does to the Phenotype of Butter Motleys, then that is what you will end up by visually selecting your results.

Can you see Caramels as Het? No, but you can see YJ as het, so a het YJ Caramel will look very yellow. Yellow Jacket has changed just about every Corn Snake Phenotype we have to a lighter Phenotype. Didn't everybody keep back the lighter looking phenotypes in clutches back then.

Are Lavenders, YJ Mochas, I believe so. Are Pewters, YJ Charcoal Bloods, I believe so. The list goes on and on.

Why did I call them Yellow Jackets, because I have been stung by them, and since it is a dominant gene, when it is in your mix, it has an effect on just about everything. The same is true of Border-less.

These two dominant genes have been in our Corn Snake Gene Pool ever since I have breed Corns, long before we learned much about the genetics of our Corns.

Until Chuck Pritzel, Corn Snake Genetics was a little confusing, but I have learn much since then, LIKE:

It is impossible for me to be Politically Correct, if my truth differs from the results I see in my clutches.

I took 5 hours the other day and did some searches on this cite. I searched for Tessera and Palmetto and selected the most views and then the most posts. I read through all of them, and I see a lot of Politically Correct Post.

I will admit, that I have respectfully disagreed with many "Truths" about our Corn Snake Gens, and have received the same treatment as Trump, by the Drive By Media.

Who proved out what a Motley Tesesra is? Me. It was called a Striped Tessera for a long time. How did I figure it out, because I understand what alleles are.

I do not believe our Corn Snakes are "Pure" Corn, ever since I have been breeding Corns, but it is not the "Politically Correct" Truth, and you may respectfully disagree or hate me, but I can figure out problems and questions about just about anything like no other.

My search for Truth has caused problems in all aspects of my life. Everybody HATES to be told their truth may be wrong, and everybody HATES it even more when you try to correct them.

I have been wrong about many things in my life, mainly by just believing my teachers. When I learned that much of what I believed was false and flipped it over to the truth, it changes your life.
Interesting read, Joe. Thanks for the insight.

As for my own perspective, I could only analyze what I could actually SEE with my own two eyes, and speculate on what exactly that could possibly mean, knowing all along that I wasn't seeing the complete picture. And, of course, spend the time and effort trying to pursue a limited number of paths in what seemed like limitless opportunities for other self propagating paths.

As for "truths", well, is something really true if later or more in depth knowledge later proves such "truths" as being false because of insufficient data and partial evidence? Is "belief" really "absolute truth" for anyone other than yourself? Beats me. I don't write the rules that anyone else has to live by.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 01:02 PM   #28
ecreipeoj
How is the Caramel line different than Goldens?

The Golden Gene/Line will be saved in its original condition, just like in was when Z caught it in the wild. Why did Z decide to breed the Wild Caught Golden x Wild Caught Corn Snake from the same area and establish a Locality Corn, because I talked him into it.

Almost everybody was suggesting that he test breed it to the Caramel Line first. If that would have happened, we would have lost a Corn Snake Gene that has the most evidence of a Landrace Corn Snake that we have. Landrace Corns are from the land, from the Earth, from Mother Earth, just like when they were Created by the Goddess Her Self. Isn't this what we really want, when we say our Corn Snake Mutant Genes are pure Corn Snake?

I do not see anything wrong with preserving the Lava Gene, Sunkissed Gene, and Golden Gene in their Landrace condition, just like was possible with each and every “wild caught” Corn in most of the histories of our mutant genes. If the “wild caught” Corn in the aquarium that Rich Z found was bred back to the Caramel Line, we would know that she was the carrier and source of the Gene. Since this was never done, I went the other way. Not one of the wild caught corns in the histories of our Corn Snake Mutants that was found in a pet shop was ever proven to carry the gene, not one of them.

How is it possible for Rich Z to have discovered and proved out the Caramel line, IF the wild caught Corn was a Yellow Rat x Red Rat Intergrade, but did not carry the Caramel Gene? Did it look like Steve R's “Buf” Okeetee, or did it look like my Yellow Jackets? Did it have borders? Is this one Corn the source of all of the questions we have about the Caramel line? What about the Snow and Amel that was used. Where did they come from? Were they from Lloyd Lemke's Bubblegum Snow Line?

The Borderless Gene does exist. I have proven it over and over, and ALL of us together can prove the gene exist just like We did in the Ultra Mystery Tread. I have copies of photos of every thing you have ever seen on this forum and others, and copies of every email I have ever sent to anybody, so I can prove it all over again, but this is not necessary. The proof is already in our photos.

The Boarderless gene, is the genetic name of this gene, but Corn Snake Jargon Names that I suggest are Cornrat, or Ratcorns. Our Corn Snake Jargon Names need to reflect meaning to those who read it. It is very obvious to me that the Borderless gene as I have described it is a Rat Snake Gene. If you can prove otherwise, I appreciate learning new truth more than anything else. Look through all of the photos of Corns you can find on the internet and the next time you go to a Snake Show, compare how many Ratcorns you see, compared to Corns that would look like a Classic Wild Type Corn from any location they have been describedand you will See the extent of Rat Snake influence in our Corn Snake Mutant Gene Pool if you care to Look.

I have decided what I will do with my Landrace Lines. I will not create a Pyramid/Apple Cart desire for them due to a Dollar Value. Nobody will get a Golden Corn, unless they want to preserve it as Landrace. The Golden Gene is already available in the het Golden x Caramel het Lava Test breedings that I did to prove it was a new gene. I gave them away for FREE, because I know the night mare it is going to be to figure out what is going on in that line. Will we see Golden Lavas from the Ratcorn breedings? I sincerely hope so! If you have an interest in preserving the Golden Gene as a Landrace, you might get one. I will eventually produce as many Golden x Mutant Genes Projects as I can handle. I would hope that everybody that ends up getting a Golden will do the same, BUT lets do it all over again because we can. I can breed Landrace Goldens and Striped Golden Sunkissed Lavas at the same time.

We have a lot of information about where many of our Mutant Genes come from. The Islands off the Coast of Florida are a treasure trove of possibilities to start more Landrace Lines. I tried like no other to establish a Landrace Blood line, with the Frase Blood from St. Augustine. Bloods are crawling around in the area and base upon some field collecting Threads I found, it exist on an Island east of Mike Frase house. The field collector could not identify a solid Red Snake he saw more than once. He thought it was a Rat or Corn but it wasn't in his field collecting guide. We all know what that Red Snake is most likely a Blood. Too bad, Mike Frase had a few escapees around his place and We eventually found Amel and Anery, which was too much for anybody to believe. Is it possible that Redcoat, Redfactor, Diffused, Amel and Anery is in the wild population around St. Augustine? Bloods and Amel came from that general area, as far as I know.

The first person that can prove a line of Landrace Anerys, will have a great shot at getting a Golden. It will be a fantastic simple trade for me. Anybody that lives near where Z caught the Golden and wants to do a little road and field collecting to find interesting Corns from the same Locality, will have a great shot at getting a Golden, and on and on. Christmas Hypos, Pine Island Anery and such should be easy. Each and every Corn Snake Gene and Rat Snake Gene exist somewhere, unless they came from a Super Jungle or KingCorn crossover transfer of genes.

I do realize that anybody can take a Cornrat out into the field and stage a capture. It is going to take more than that to convince me. Doing something like that is no better releasing a 100 Ratcorns in the middle of the Okeetee Hunt Club to devalue the Local. Doing something like that, is no better than taking your captive bred Gray Bands down to Texas at just the right time of year and selling them as Locality Graybands, to field collectors having the time of their lives. Some things are just immoral.

I am give credit for saving the Lava, Sunkissed and Golden genes in their wild caught state, but I haven't saved anything yet. I am the only one working with these Landrace genes, so until other people help me, nothing has been saved at all. I would like to see other Localities of wild caught corns added to my Landrace, such as Naples, Miami, and the Islands off the coast of Florida. I can offer Landrace Lavas and even Landrace Sunkissed in trade for any good Landrace Project to help people get started. Landrace Anery's should be easy for someone to add to this list, BUT I think a wild caught Locality Anery, in a local where others can find more wild caught Anerys would be a better beginning to their history

I love our Mutant Corns as much as anybody. I know as much about their genes as anybody. I hope I am not the only Person in the entire World that values Pure Corn Snake Genes and Locality Corns as much as I do. I have never sold a Landrace Lava for more than $150. I have 17 Landrace Sunkissed (Stargazer free), from 2016 to 2018, that will be used as trade bait or offered for sale for something like $250 each, eventually if needed. The Goldens are not even close to being saved or offered for sale to anybody, and will not be valued strictly for a dollar value.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 01:11 PM   #29
ecreipeoj
Sarah Morh's New Book review, Caramel, Buf, Toffee, Yellow Jacket

I would like to edit your books if you wish. I know you want to get them as accurate as possible. I am going to edit some of the information you attibute to me in your 2018 Book, right here and now and establish my Expertise to back up my Opinions I present. I am going to refer to your book as a reference. I am going to present you with a different perspective than your own. I am going to present things that I believe to be True, that will hit many people who read this in the face like a brick, because it is opposite than they believe.

I am an Expert Keeping Snakes, Breeding Snakes, and Know a great deal about the genetics of all Snakes, due to a simple hobby I have had for 35 years. I am an Expert in the genetics of many Animals and Humans. I have bred Arabian Horses for 20 years which requires a blood test of any new foal to compare to the parents before it can be registered as a Pure Arabian. I train Arabian foals from birth, until they die, or find a new home. I am a Cat Person, and have just about every Cat Mutant Gene expressed in my Companions. I have 20 years of Experience investigation accidental Events, much like a private investigator, and presented my Opinion about how the event occurred and what the Actual Truth of the event was. Who was telling me the truth and who was lying. I am an Expert Witness presenting my Investigations in Court, with many lives and millions of dollars at stake. I have investigated Yellow Factor and today I am going to tie up a bunch of loose ends in your Book about the subject, and bring Yellow Jacket on the Front Burner!

Everybody has a Mentor in this Hobby, and mine is Lloyd Lemke. I bought some of my first Red Corns from him, I talked to him at every snake show that we did together for many years. I may have spent time at 50 shows talking to Lloyd, and I have been to his house more times than I can remember to pick up new CANDY. I learned from Lloyd exactly how all of these Mutant Genes get moved around. I have several personal stores I can tell, such as a customer of mine found the very first Anery Pituophis of any kind in the USA, near Chico CA. It was a Pacific Gopher. I had Amel Striped Pacific Gophers going, so I got to prove it out. Well, you know me, from Amel Striped “Pacific” Gopher x Wild Caught Anery Pacific Gopher, I eventually produced Blotched and Striped Anerys and Snows. How cool, pure Pacific Gopher Mutants. Not so quick!

I ran into the “guy” I bought my Amel Striped Pacific Gophers from for $500 each years later, and he had fogotten what he had told me about how he created the line. He forgot how I was present when he cried when his multiple female Amel Stripe Pacific Gophers bred to a Single Male Amel Striped Pacific Gopher laid over 50 eggs, sorry SLUGS, and a $25,000 brand new car vanished before his eyes.

When he found out that I had discovered a new Anery Pacific Gopher line, he got excited. He told me how I can create new Anery and Snow Gophers in ever line there is just like he did and make a TON of $. He produced the very first Amel Blotched and Amel Striped Pacific Gophers, by breeding an Amel Sonoran Gopher x wild caught Striped Pacific. Yes they do exist in one single valley, and you can road hunt the only road down the middle of it, get permission to turn over lumber from old barns, and you will find some. Striped Pacific Gophers exist in the wild just like Striped California King Snakes, and they are both Dominant, exactly like Tesseras. This “guy” wanted an Anery so bad, he could taste it. He never got one. Over the years, I have watched my original wild caught Anery Pacific gene get bred into each and every Pit, across the USA. Each and every one of them have similar Histories of our Corns that just end, or they are Pure as far as they know. I traded Lloyd Lemke a pair Snow Pacifics and a pair of Anery Pacifics for a pair of Amel Nelsons priced at $2000 each. Look what he created from them by 1998 in his Sonoran Line of Pits. In my opinion, the subspecies of Pits, are more like wide ranging “localities” of the same snake, so mixing them is not the same as a Corn x King mix.


I also witnessed how Amel Cape Gophers were created. A different “guy” did the same thing, but with an Amel Northern Pine and they are now “Pure” Amel Cape Gophers. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Snow Cape Gophers now. I have caught and released Cape Gopher on trips around the Cape of Baja and back, and it is simple Immoral, if you don't tell the truth about it. The TRUTH is there are far more Basement Mutant Genes created that have ever been found. I actually don't have a problem with it, because just look at all of the cool Mutant snakes we can see.

My memory is excellent, so when I decided to just think about where else the Caramel Gene came from other that a wild caught corn that was not tested to Caramel to prove its source, I came up with the Snow and Amel that was used to breed to her were both or just one of them, was het for Caramel. Then I remembered a conversation Lloyd Lemke and I had 20 years ago, about his brand new Bubblegum Corns, Butter Corns, and a brand new Orange Amel Yellow Rat Snake line. He offered any of them to me for $250 each. I was looking for something different than the Red Corns I had already bought from him. We discussed how to make his “Orange” Corn, in 1998, before Buf ever described it in 2001. To make “Orange” Corns, I simply had to breed a Butter x any Red Amel and presto, “Orange”Corns (orange amel Corn)

I had known Lloyd a long time by then, and learned what his “English” meant. Pure as far as he knew, was “Code” for a gene transfer. How do you Create the Bubble Gum, Butter Line, and brand new Amel Yellow Rat Snake with “orange” on it at the same time? You breed a Pink Snow X Yellow Rat, raise them up, and produce f2 Snows, Amels and “Normals”, that are all Ratcorns, but what if Lloyd discovered something else? Everybody knew then as I did, that Lloyd will sell any snake for money. That is how he made his living. Lloyd taught me, that a pure new Mutant can be sold for at least around $1000, but if you tell the truth about it, you will be selling it to a Whole Seller for $8-20.

I know it is very possible for Lloyd to have sent Rich Z a Snow from his Bubblegum line and an interesting Amel, and Rich would find a female Corn to help Create a New Amel LOOK. Lloyd already saw “Orange” Corns (Amel). Lloyd Lemke could have set up Rich Z to discover the Caramel Gene, and he didn't even have known it. If one or both of the Corns he used to breed to the wild caught female was het for Caramel, his results could have easily been exactly the same as he described.

Yellow Factor is more proven than Buf or Toffee. I like what you did with your Halo Test. I understood them perfectly. You do not quite understand the Buf and Toffee breedings. They did not see 3 different phenotypes of Normal, Amel and Orange, they saw the same thing I saw with my Butter Motley and Striped Butter Breedings, and just about every other Corn Snake Mutant breeding that I have done, now that I have defragmented everything.

We are seeing 3 different phenos within Amel, or within Butter. My original Rich Z Striped Butters are a great example. They were Rich Z's picks of the year I bought them, priced at $1000 each. The male grew up to be the most awesome, “Auratum” Striped Butter, I have ever seen, just like the one that Thomas Schaub discribed Toffee from. The female Striped Butter I received was opposite. She was extremely light with less pattern. We see three phenos in Butters, Homo YF Striped Butter, Striped Butter and het YF Striped Butter, an in-between pheno. All of Us, (Buf, Toffee, Halo, and YF) are seeing the same exact thing, the on and off effects of a “co-dominant gene, or is it “incomplete dominant”. I don't understand the descriptions in your book exactly.

An easy way to think of Dominant or Het Dominant genes is to imagine looking through a “Beaded Curtain”. For Yellow Factor the beads are a see though yellow plastic bead. Normal, Amel, Anery, Caramel and on and on, and their combines have a “Normal” Phase without Yellow Factor present at all. Yellow Factor can have an effect on just about every Corn Snake Mutant Gene we have. Corns that are homo YF, have a Beaded Curtain hanging in front of them that has the maximum amount of yellow beads possible on each string. Het YF is reduced by 50%. This creates three phenos possible on top of each mutant gene by adding the beaded curtains or removing them.

We can see this in each and every line of our Corn Snake Mutants, or we should be able to. Anery are described as varying from light to dark. Ghost, Lavenders, Amels, Butters, Lavas and on and on, are effected by the three phenos that the YF gene produces. My favorite Anery Pheno, is Black on Silver, like the Raiders Football Team. Homo YF Anery, can look so light, it resembles a Ghost. We have all seen these three phenos and kissed it off to different Locals, which does change the look of an Anery, from lets say the Hunt Club area or Miami Areas, to the Keys, BUT that is not all that is happening. We are seeing the on/off effects of a SUPER YELLOW Factor in our Corns. Boa and Python people will know what I mean. You can easily See it as het, just like a Motley Boa, but there is a SUPER Motley Boa that is extremely different. The same exact three phenos of Normal, Het Incomplete Dominant and the Super Homo pheno.

I believe that Kathy Love introduced the first YF Ratcorn into our Hobby, with out knowledge. All of us are guilty of not being able to See the forest for the trees. The trees are our Mutant genes. Sometimes we can get so focused on them, we do not see the Hybrid Markers of Rat Snakes, such as Borderless and YF. How do I know YF is from Yellow Rats and not just from Creamcicles? When anybody breeds a Butter Motley or Striped Butter x Amel, you will produced the “Orange' Amel just like I have several times and so many others. Take the only mutant gene causing yellow in the line, Caramel, out of the equasion, and you end up pouring a gallon of yellow paint into a gallon of red paint to produce the “Orange” Corn amel. There are no other explainations that I can come up with except a Red X Yellow Rat Breeding. It is just like we learned about mixing paint when we were young, if NO mutant genes are causing the yellow color.

We can not talk Lloyd Lemke now because his Avatar is no longer with us, but I can. He is alive and well in the “Spirit World”(Heaven). I am every kind of Empath and Psychic that you have ever heard of just like Teal Swan, if you know who she is. This includes the “Clown” Empath that is like a Bull in a china shop of mis-information. We don't have to react to misinformation, but if we are ask to, Our Soul, can not help itself, and we bring attention to the misinformation, which is Loving, no matter how much you don't like it.

Sarah, your Halo Test Breedings, can now be understood and I can establish more history of the line for you. Bubblegum Snows are Yellow/Red Rat Hybrids, closer to the original breeding. They are so difficult to reproduce, because you can breed a gallon of yellow paint out of Corns, but it takes more generations that my Butter Motley x Red Amel Motley (Lloyd Lemke) to get there. ALL Butters have a lot of unexplainable Yellow Pigment, that doesn't come from the Caramel gene, unless you can prove it otherwise. Bubblebums and Green Blotched Snows are difficult to create as good as the first ones, because they are being diluted by our Normal Corn Snake genes, each generation they are bred.

How did I confirm my memories about my conversations with Lloyd 20 years ago. I talked to Lloyd of course and down loaded all of the information from him about it. Do you believe in “chanelling” or “inhabiting”, I can do it any time that I want to. Look it up on the internet. There are a lot of people who can channel, or allow inhabitation. It is an awesome experience. Basically, they move into the drivers seat of your Avatar, and you slide over into the passenger seat. From that point, I experience everything he sees and thinks, and I down load the information.

Channeled from Lloyd Lemke: I used a price list I saved of Lloyd's to ask him to join me. All I had to do is focus on the Price List, and pow, I moved over into the passenger seat. Lloyd and I read each and every word on the price list, like two school boys, reliving old times. Lloyd's price list started out listing his brand new Amel Orange Yellow Rat for $250, close by his brand new Bubblegum Corns ($225-275 depending on pink), and Butters that were listed at $65. Several people made the connection, so his brand new Amel Orange Yellow Rat was moved in the middle of other Rats on a different page and listed them at $55, instead of $250. The price of Bubblegums and Butters was changed to same price (275), but he just didn't think about removing his brand new “Orange” Corns that look just like Creamcicles. Bubblegum Corns originated from a Snow x Yellow Rat breeding.
 
Old 01-09-2019, 01:14 PM   #30
ecreipeoj
Sarah Morh, Yellow Jacket Correction

In your description of Yellow Jacket, you list Rich Hume as my source for Yellow Jacket. I know it is an easy mistake to make, Rich Z or Rich H, but I like Rich H. He has never done anything to me, except allow me to sell his awesome Striped Bloods. I sold half of them and them, failed to pay for the second half as we agreed, due to personal reasons. He was right to bring this to the Bio. I set up a 50% off Sale, and the money was directed into his PayPal account, until he email me and told me that I had sent him more money than I needed to for his snakes and time. He didn't want to see any of his Striped Snow Bloods and the like to be offered by me in two years, so I let them all go. I only kept a female Striped Blood that I obtained from him before our agreement and he agree to make a post on the Bio about our agreement.

I did receive some Caramel carriers from from Rich Hume, from a breeding loan. I sent him a Lava and he bred it to one of his Caramel Bloods. They are Yellow Jacketed too, but came from the Mystery Line. I ended up with 6 genes in the mix, and produced my first Topaz Bloods, and Lavender Topaz Bloods from them. Breed a Light Plasma x Red Blood or light Pewter x Red Blood, and you too will witness the Yellow Jacket Gene right before your eyes too.

I do not have a grudge against Rich Hume, because I received pair Caramel Based Corns that infected my colony with Yellow Factor. Just about ALL Caramel and Butter based mutants are infected with the “Yellow Disease” I have described as Yellow Factor. I do not have a grudge against Rich Z for the results of my Hurricane Butter Motley x Hurricane Red Motleys. The “Tangerine” Hurricane Motleys I produced from them were very nice. I do not have a grudge against either of these Corn Snake Breeders for any reason. I am simply reporting the results of my breedings, so we can all learn more about the genetics of our Corns, so we can reproduce them with more consistency, and plan our new projects better.

The only grudge I have is against misinformation.
 

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