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Miscellaneous Corn Snake Discussions This is a "none of the above" forum. All posts should still be related to cornsnakes in one form or another, but some slight off topic posting is fine.

Joe Pierce -- BAD GUY
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:19 PM   #21
Snakexperience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
Well, it looks like this just might turn into a communications issue. I finally got a brief response from Joe by posting a link to this thread in one of the threads in his forum... It sounds like I -should- get a full reply from him in the not too distant future... Hopefully it'll all work out okay in the end. I'll keep you guys posted.

-Kat
It's always a com-problem, the way both parties deal with it makes it end up in a good thing or a bad thing.

Arjan
 
Old 10-14-2006, 01:13 PM   #22
ecreipeoj
Joe Pierce is not a bad guy, Kat is an absolute idiot and everything I have heard about her is true. The problem between Kat and I now in my opinion, is my allergic reaction to estrogen in my face and out of balance hormones. I should not have to deal with this from somebody who is not my girl.

In my opinion, Kat Hall won the Joe Pierce Lottery Ticket this year and it going to make damn sure that she gets every single red cent coming to her. I have never met anybody that was more ungrateful and aggressive towards people. I am so sick and tired of reading about her “calling people out”, and I called “Joe Pierce” on the Transparent and Blue Ice issue. Who do you really think you are? New people do not need your estrogen in their face when they are a little ignorant or very new. Kat Hall called Joe Pierce out, but Joe Pierce discovered the Lava gene and Joe Pierce made the Ice morph. I totally lucked into them and I know it. I don’t beat my chest about it every time the subject comes up, why do you have to remind people what a piece of work you are every time you see something that is not currently accepted by the majority?

I sent Kat an adult female Lava Het Ice and adult female Sunkissed to the Hypo Test Breeding Project. These two females were proven breeders and lets use 10 as the expected viable offspring from them. They may have laid 15-20 eggs, but they do not always hatch out and certainly they would most likely not all be viable. Kat completed the tests and we proved that the Lava gene was not compatible with Ultra and we had another test to Sunkissed. I got 4.0 Het for Sunkissed Lava Motley and Ultra OR Amel and 0.2 Het for Lava Motley and Ultra or Amel. I never question a single thing that Kat told me about her results and why should I? I could not possibly know one way or another, so I chose to trust her, until she proved otherwise. Breeding Loans historically go BAD! and I do not like being involved in them. Here is another one that went better than perfect and still turned out to be bad.

Last year, we had figured out what the Ultra gene was and Kat owned Deathy, an Ultramel Motley het Caramel, that she bought from Mike Shivers as a Hypo Motley. I don’t know what she paid for it, but she lucked into it big time. At the time, I did not own one single Ultra and I wanted some. We agreed on a breeding loan and I sent her two adult Butter Motley females and a young Striped Opal female. The two Butter Motleys had laid very nice clutches of eggs from me, so they were good candidates. The Striped Opal needed some more feeding to get her ready, but if I had her, I fully expected her to produce around 10 viable offspring. From that breeding loan, I got 1.1 Goldust Motleys with bumps on their spine and nothing more. I listen to Kats excuses and accepted what she said without question. I wondered why her Corn Snake eggs were taking around 80 days to hatch and some of the other things she told me were not exactly what I think should be done, but you really can not tell her anything, because she knows absolutely everything there is to know about breeding Corn Snakes. Some how, our breeding loan grew into me getting the opportunity to have Deathy sent here so I could give him a try. I don’t remember why, but I think it was because she felt guilty about how things had turned out. At this point in time, I had sent here five adult very nice female Corn Snakes that were homo for some very cool morphs of the time, and I had received 4.2 hets and 1.1 Goldust Motleys that were not sellable.

I wanted Deathy in the fall, so I had a good chance to work him into my system. When I got him, I wormed him, treated him with Flagel and I fattened him up. I thought he was a little under weight. The 2006 Breeding Season came around and I began to work him into my season. As seasons go, they develop as I proceed through it, and I ended up breeding Deathy to six female Corns. (Snow Motley, Amel Striped, Caramel het Ultra, 2 Butter Motleys and a Striped Butter). They all laid very nice clutches. I took as many photos as I possibly could of the breedings and the clutches laid and posted them in my 2006 Breeding and Hatching Thread. This takes time, but I took the time to record as much as I could with photographs, which let Kat see how things were developing and it prove to be a very interesting project. When the clutches started hatchling I also took quite a few photos and posted them in the thread. I was enjoying the results as much as anybody because I had never produced a single Ultra Morph of any kind before, but I knew exactly what was going to happen to a point before everything worked out. I did not expect Kat to email me constantly about what the morph count was and what the sex ratio was and ask the same questions over and over in a different way trying to trip me up. I had not given her any reason not to trust me, but the S!@# from her started right then.

Do you know what I did? I answered all of her questions as best I could. She ask so many questions that I had to do some of it off the top of my head and I would forget to list one female in an email or leave something out, completely unintentionally. She jumped on it like a cheetah immediately. I do not believe that many people actually know what a breeder such as myself, and other breeders such as Rich and Don are really doing. We are not sitting at a desk answering emails and looking at Cornsnakes.com while we are at work with our nice but very manageable Corn Snake collections at home. I actually fed my entire colony during a two day period. It took me 24 hours to feed and water every Corn that I have at this time. That is more than half of a Normal work week for most people. Believe me, I am not complaining, because at many times of the year, I don’t have much to do and since I have a lot of experience taking care of a lot of animals, I can actually pull it off, without as much trouble as you may think. Lets just say, I have learned to have a knack for it. Most people have never been introduced to actual WORK. If you have never worked in a factory, you don’t know what work is. There are a lot of people making your hash browns for example. I live in potato country and you would not believe what some people have to do for a living, but I see it all the time. They work 10 and 12 hour days 6 or 7 days a week doing one thing over and over again. 99% of them are Mexicans and you know what, they work very hard and their way of life works just fine. We are so spoiled completely rotten.

I continued gritting my teeth with her and did everything that she requested. She had a show that she wanted her share of the Corn ready for. I thought I could make the date and I even pre-registered her share for her so she could do this show. I sexed Corns before I normally would, paid much more attention to them that I normally would, and we ended up with a very nice group of Corns to split up. I was busier than hell at the time, and she had been bugging me constantly to get a final list to her. I did exactly what she requested. I came up with a final VIABLE count and I also listed ones that had kinks, refused live, refused thawed, refused brained and so forth. I sent her the list and told her to split it up fairly and I would take a look at it. I have the list of Corns that I sent her, but do we need to get into that? The total value based upon my Price list was somewhere around 14K and they were what everybody was wanting. I made two request of Kat. I wanted one of the male Goldust Motleys that I thought was very special and I wanted the pick of the entire group, a Goldust Motley het Striped MALE. There were a lot of very cool morphs in this group, such as Goldust Motleys, Goldust, Ultramels het Caramel , Ultramel Motleys het Caramel, Ultramel Motleys het Anery, Ultramel Motleys het Striped Goldust Motleys het Striped and even the Butter Motleys het for Striped were very nice and very desirable at this time. There were just as many Amel morphs too and they are very viable. The line is very strong!!! Kat split the group up and ask me if she could have the Goldust Motley het Striped Male because she did not have anything to bred to the female Goldust Motley het Striped. The value of that male over the female is very obvious to anybody who is in the know, but you know what, I said OK, and we had a done deal. Kat had requested that I ship two shipment to her so she could have this first group for the show and I complied. So far, everybody is happy. Who in the entire world would not want to be a part of this Joe Pierce Lottery Ticket? I did not plan this to happen, but it really worked out to both of our benefits. I happen to get a lot of very nice new morphs in my share as well.

I have a knack for getting female Corns to double clutch and I got three of them to go again. The Snow Motley, Butter Motley and Caramel het Ultra females produced nice second clutches. Does everybody know that I am semi retired but at this time, I am trying to make a living selling Corn Snakes. This is not an easy task to pull off. I have some European Customers that have treated me very well recently and the list is growing. We have found a reasonably safe and cost efficient way to ship Corns to the Hamm Show. The Hamm Show has a set date, which causes many dead lines. I really wish that everything I planned to breed produced and I had everything that everybody wants to buy, but it never works out that way. If you don’t have a deposit, you really do not have a sale and that is how I was working with these European Customers. We had to make quite a few last minute changes due to some of my failures and I ended up needing 2.0 Ultramel Motleys het Caramel to fill their orders. You know what, they really wanted them, and that had become more important to me than getting the money for them. I may have priced them too low, because they were selling like hot cakes. I told these customers that I had three more clutches incubating from this project and based upon hatch times and the minimum time I needed to get a Corn eating, we may make it.

The last three clutches from Deathy hatched and there were six Ultramels het Caramel in the group that ate a live pink. I had not sexed them or inventoried them or anything. Half of these Corns were mine and half would go to Kat. I did not have a problem with this. Kat actually ask me if I wanted to keep Deathy for another year, but I declined. I did not actually need Deathy for this years breeding season, because I have two breedable Males that are het for Ultramel, but we had already set up the breeding loan and it worked out very well. If you have every packed for a show, you will know what I had to do to get my European Orders packed and shipped. At the last moment, my Broker and his pardoner in crime decided they needed extra time, so I had to have the order to them by Monday which meant I had to have the package to them by Friday. This order going to Hamm was very large and had many players involved. I needed 2.0 Ultramel Motleys het Caramel for the order and as I was packing, I needed some normal Butter Motleys for the order. My Butter Motleys I produced this year, all came out to be absolutely stunning Hurricane Butter Motleys which I did not want to send to them, but I had some Butter Motleys from Kat’s and my breeding loan. I sexed the six Ultramel Motleys het Caramel and came up with 2.4. I took the liberty of selecting the 2.0 Ultramel Motleys het Caramel for myself and I also included 2.1 Butter Motleys. The European Orders were filled and some how, we got them to Hamm, and everybody is basically very happy with how things went and we will be doing it again and again hopefully.

Miss Kat, started bugging me again for a list of morphs and sexes. Good grief, I now had around 120 clutches hatched out with more coming soon, and I was behind due to the European orders. I really needed to regroup and at the very least get a new starting point. I had let Kat split up the first group from our breeding loan and let her have some Corns that I wanted. I even included a small clutch of five hatchings from a Lavender female that I put Deathy in with but did not see any breeding. It is very likely that my male Ultramel het Lav Motley did the breeding, and you know what, Kat got the Ultramel het Lavender from that group, even though it was not the sex she needed. What else could I possible do to make this woman happy? I sent her the finial list from the second clutches and again I told her to split it up and I would take a look at it. Kat actually split things up with the first group in a way that I was satisfied with it. When I sent her the list, I told her that I had sent the 2.0 Ultramel Motleys het Caramel and 2.1 Butter Motleys to Europe and just put them on my side of the split. We had talked about me possibly selling some of her share for a cut, but we had left that open. This second group of Corns was very much like the first but smaller. We had six Ultramel Motleys het Caramel to split up. That is pretty easy, 3 for each of us.

Kat got in my face about selling the most desirable 2.0 Ultramel Motleys het Caramel without telling her, which I did, but you know what, I think I should have final say in how we split up the results from our breeding loan, and since she had her way with the first split, I did not fathom, that she would have a problem with it. She was in my face about it when I first told her about it, and they got extremely in my face about it after she thought about if for a while and told me that I was going to send her a money order for half of the value of the snakes I sold to friends in Europe. She did not talk to me about it, she told me how it was going to be, in her in your face f#$#$^*% b$%^& way. You know what, I really don’t deserve to be treated that way at all. I have never been treated this way before, by somebody who I bent over backwards for and stood on my head for before.

When I sent Kat the list, I had one order that had to be sent out. Where I live, my FedEx package have to go to Redding California and in the summer it can get 115 down there. My packages sit in a FedEx truck all day and I have had some losses. I do have an alternate shipping method. Most of my family lives in Klamath Falls Oregon. The weather there is like it is here. I can drive to the airport in Klamath Falls, Oregon and had my packages to the actual pilot that puts them on the plane and they are in Portland Oregon by 5 pm. Portland has a great climate for shipping. It is by the ocean and it never gets too hot or too cold to ship. The only problem with this is I have to drive 100 miles one way to go to Klamath. This is something that I have to do sometimes and visit my family while I am there. When I sent Kat this list, I told her about the heat problem and I told her that I was planning a trip to Klamath to ship and I could send her share to her. I had complete and full intentions to finish our breeding loan and frankly be done with Miss Kat. When she started telling me that I was going to send her a money order for half of my snakes that I sold, I had better things to do that deal with her at the time and I haven’t shipped any packages since to anybody. Some times folks, I need to turn my computer off and catch up and sometimes that can take a while. I prefer email so I can fit this type of communication into my day, but my phone number is listed on my price list and you can call me any time, but I can not be on the phone talking all day, no way.

Kat sent me a couple of personal messages and one email. You know what, I did not want to read them or deal with her and I had plenty of other things to do. The first time I heard about this thread was yesterday, and in my opinion, it is 100% slander. I did absolute nothing to Kat except to produce around 10K worth of animals for her. I am sorry, but I can not comprehend her way of thinking at all, and she is totally out of line. I have worked very hard to maintain a good reputation, which is almost impossible in this business. I have had trouble with some people and you know what, I have taken care of it, bent over backward to take care of people. I have never felt like I was being taken advantage of in any way, and this is how I do business.

Kat’s share from the last three second clutches is here and live and well. I will be making the split this time and I will ship her share to her work address as before. She agreed to pay for this second shipment, so I will need payment or a FedEx account number to do this if it is not contained in her last messages to me. I have full intentions to complete our breeding loan, but my dear Kat, you are not my friend and I think you are not a very nice person.

Do you guys know that I have a personal life? I just spent quite a bit of time writing this up, which I should not have had to do, and now I am going to drive three hours to my youngest sons varsity high school football game, with my second son and I will be gone all day. I will not get any Snake Work done and I will leave the lights off in my Dragon room and take care of them tomorrow. You know what I should have done this morning? I should have turned on my Dragon lights, fed them their greens and then fed them some insects before I left and when I got back. But thanks to Kat, I was unable to do that, and now it will be priority tomorrow morning. This situation is completely and totally unacceptable. I did not wrong Kat in any way and I bet just about everybody who reads this would have loved to enter into this breeding loan with me. I do not understand her point of view in anyway shape or form.

I do not have time now to read what Kat has said about me, but you know what, the title says it all. I was suppose to leave to the football game at 10 am and now it is 10:11am. I will deal with this when I have the time.
 
Old 10-14-2006, 02:02 PM   #23
Kat
Hmm... not sure what I can say to that without making already hard feelings worse. Honestly, I didn't realize you felt that way about me the whole time, Joe... I realize I can come off as being rude or blunt at times (comes with being a nerd with no social skills and the inability to read others very well), but I didn't realize I was being THAT much of a pain. So I'm sorry for coming off to you as such a jerk through this whole deal. It wasn't intentional.

-Kat
 
Old 10-14-2006, 02:05 PM   #24
robin h
Wow... this is a little more clear...


What a story, well, I trust you Joe... and this European guy will buy your hatchlings again next year...

To be honest, when you completed my order (and before, while you answered every single email I sent) you were my corn-superhero

I respect you for the work you do... and I am glad I have been able to work with you... and as you know, I will try to buy something again next year...

If you are looking for a breeding loan, I have a BEAUTIFUL Ultramel Motley het. anery male which is feeding great... maybe you could use him net year :P

No, I'm just kidding... not funny

Hope you will finish the deal and both get your deserved rest

And Joe... tell your son you'll be there BEFORE the match begins, next time... family is more important than some "stupid" corns and other people

Regards Robin Heinen
 
Old 10-14-2006, 02:06 PM   #25
Kat
Quote:
She agreed to pay for this second shipment, so I will need payment or a FedEx account number to do this if it is not contained in her last messages to me.
Agreed, I did... If you'll let me know how much shipping will be, I can send you a money order.

-Kat
 
Old 10-14-2006, 02:27 PM   #26
robin h
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
Agreed, I did... If you'll let me know how much shipping will be, I can send you a money order.

-Kat

Just curious... you were the one who made this public... is THIS your only reaction, or are you jelling at Joe's answering machine-taperecord...

I had expected a little more words, after your story... or are you telling Joe Pierce isn't that bad after all...

In that case I think you owe him your apologies...

just my 2 cents
 
Old 10-14-2006, 03:09 PM   #27
jazzgeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj
Joe Pierce is not a bad guy, Kat is an absolute idiot and everything I have heard about her is true. The problem between Kat and I now in my opinion, is my allergic reaction to estrogen in my face and out of balance hormones. I should not have to deal with this from somebody who is not my girl.
Regardless of :
  • Kat "winning the Joe Pierce Lottery Ticket"
  • Kat "lucking into an Ultramel Motley het Caramel" (by your admission, you "lucked into the Lava gene and Ice morph")
  • the number of questions Kat asked during the process....
  • the constraints of your personal life (did you know that, as we're all people, we ALL have personal lives ???), and
  • the status of your Dragon room (by the way, try using timers on your lights - it's a great convenience)
....regardless of ALL OF THAT...if this is your "opener" to a request for a response (at the very least) and/or information regarding a concern of "customer service", the only impression and thought that I'm left with is....

"Sweet Jesus, what a dick."

You're blaming her concern for your lack of response to her inquiries on an endocrinological/hormonal reaction? What? Did you just step out of some Billy Wilder movie from the 50s?

Am I the only one thinks his response is out of line?

Upon being "called out" publicly, should it not have been best handled by PMs, with only the "resolution" broadcast (by both parties) in public?

Yes, the old adage is "the customer is always right". (And while Kat may not be a "customer" in the strictest sense since this is a breeding loan, it's probably best thought of as a "partnership".) Most of us also know that many times, that, instead of being right, the customer can also be a jerk and/or idiot.

Furthermore, most of us also know that if a business proprietor is going to publicly refer to their partners and/or clients as jerks and idiots, it reflects more on them than it does on whom they serve.

I've met Kat, albeit briefly, this past weekend at the Tinley Park expo. She is neither jerk nor idiot; she just has an odd habit of smelling deli cups.

I've not met Joe. Given his tone in response to Kat's inquiry, it now won't matter to me if I ever do. It won't matter to me if he requires extensive dental work while he "grits his teeth" while handling customers. It won't matter to me if his dragons develop metabolic bone disease due to lack of ultraviolet light.

It just won't matter. Welcome to apathy, Mr. Pierce.

irregards,
jazz
 
Old 10-14-2006, 03:22 PM   #28
DaemoNox
Very well said; I was willing to give him a chance; however all the words spoken after that opening statement were spoiled. No matter who is right or wrong in this matter that was certainly uncalled for...
 
Old 10-14-2006, 03:23 PM   #29
gwb8568
dayum

*tells self to read this whole thread, and not just browse through it, when he gets off of work and has 3-4 hours of spare time*
 
Old 10-14-2006, 03:41 PM   #30
bribrian
On dear, as some butter motleys came this direction from Joe, i feel partly responsible for this unfortunate dispute. I can verify what Joe said about last minute panic on the order & was touch & go as to whether it got sent or not. At the end of the day i was completely satisfied with my animals & will hopefully deal with him again. To add, i hope that Kat & Joe can take a step back to reflect & resolve their differences....
 

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