Imprinting Scent on Captive-Bred Eggs?

Professor Hepper's research team is interested in all aspects of early learning. They aim to investigate all animal groups to see if the same effects of pre-hatch or embryonic learning are present. To date all vertebrate species investigated appear to show the same effect.

The implications of the general adoption of this truly quantum leap technique by herpetoculturalists promises to ease the captive raising of existing, problematic, captive bred species, whilst opening the door to new species previously considered practically impossible to get feeding as hatchlings. Similar experiments conducted with T-Rex's Mouse Maker have encouraged an active feeding response on mice for the subsequent hatchlings of Indigo snakes (Drymarchon spp.) and Hognose snakes (Heterodon spp.) from parents that previously routinely produced difficult hatchling feeders. I await the future with interest to see how effective and wide ranging this revolutionary technique will prove to be in successful herpetoculture and conservation breeding.

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Now ... obviously the research was DONE by t-rex, so the fact that their mouse maker was used isn't a huge surprise :grin01: But it might prove a better idea then making rat gut jus to coat eggs in!

ETA: paper reference for similar resarch in chickens - http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2308953
Abstract for embryonic olfactory learning in frogs article - http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779089968~db=all

So there you have it!! Thanks for that, Toyah. Incredibly interesting to read.

Now...does anyone have any idea how I can go about making Mouse Juice?? :sidestep:

Use a blender!

Defiantly a blender add a cup of water or so and some pinkies
:-D Yummy protein shake!

In all seriousness...

...I realize that in order to do this...I will need to mix some pinkies in a blender at some point...maybe an adult, instead of pinkies...I don't know.

So, in all seriousness...I would like some input as to what to try and how to try it. An adult and some vegetable oil in a blender? A few pinkies and some water? How would you go about keeping the mixture, since it will need to be applied multiple times through the last 2 weeks of incubation? I assume a tupperware-style container in the fridge would suffice, but what would be the most stable mixture to use for "Mouse Juice"? What about cooking the "juice" to extend the life? Will that alter the scent enough to contradict the desired reults?

I desperately want to try this, and get some quasi-scientific results from a controlled experiment, but I am also not looking forward to blending a new batch of "Mouse Juice" everytime I need to scent the eggs...

This is very interesting and I look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.

I would use pinkies instead of older mice. Less bone development and less hair to deal with while blending.

I would then take the "mouse juice" and put it in an ice tray. Then each time you needed to scent you could simply take one of the "mice cubes" :shrugs: and thaw it.

Rich in KY said:

...I would then take the "mouse juice" and put it in an ice tray. Then each time you needed to scent you could simply take one of the "mice cubes" :shrugs: and thaw it.

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Now see? THAT'S an idea that never crossed my mind! :cheers:

Then...I could do a couple different trays, one made with adults, and one with pinkies, and see if there is a profound difference in effect, by splitting the clutches into different control groups...No Scenting, Pinkie Mixture, Adult Mixture...

I think the company that did the research was T-Rex, and they make an artificial (?) scent liquid to entice animals to eat. ie. Mouse scent on lizards or vice versa.

You could use that and homemade juice to compare to a control. :shrugs:

D80

Yeah, in the quote above it says that it was T-Rex's Mouse Maker used on Indigo and Hognose eggs. I will probably give that a go and see how it works ...

ok, this might be really dumb but its something I am wondering and it hasnt come up yet so I gotta ask.... If eggs need good ventilation to be able to have air and liquid going into and out of the egg... by putting stuff On the egg... Doesnt that clog the egg shell?? :shrugs:

Yes...I imagine it would be a problem if you coated the entire shell with "scent", as if you were painting it. But I don't plan on doing that...only a couple drops of liquid scent on top of the egg...just enough to allow permeation and scenting to the inside of the egg. 95% or more of the eggshell would be clean and exposed to air/moisture as necessary for proper developement, respiration, and hydration...

ah ok thanks for explaining... I was just wondering because it sounded odd is all

I think that was a great question. I would be hestitant to put even a drop of something on a corn snake egg, just from concerns it would throw off the humidity in the egg chamber or that even a drop or two could diffuse throughout the shell and make the overall surface too moist to exchange oxygen. But I guess if someone has already done it, it can be done. It will be interesting to see the results. I have one stubborn striped amel lizard eater I wish had been imprinted on pinkies... I hope it works!

Couple more things I've thought of . . .

1. The egg surface being too wet shouldn't be too much of a worry. Obviously you don't want the eggs sitting in a bowl of water, but the embryo/hatchling is floating in fluids inside the egg . . .
2. If using the Mouse Maker liquid, I think it would be important to use a Lizard Maker as well on 1 or 2 eggs in the clutch as part of the test. ie. If there's 12 eggs in the clutch, and 4 are left plain, 4 have Mouse Maker, 4 have homemade Mouse Juice, and 4 have Lizard Maker, that would make for some good comparable results in one clutch.

D80

Drizzt80 said:

2. If using the Mouse Maker liquid, I think it would be important to use a Lizard Maker as well on 1 or 2 eggs in the clutch as part of the test. ie. If there's 12 eggs in the clutch, and 4 are left plain, 4 have Mouse Maker, 4 have homemade Mouse Juice, and 4 have Lizard Maker, that would make for some good comparable results in one clutch.

D80

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Great idea you have there! I think it would also make for some good comparable results if after hatching the 4 groups were offered the 4 scented food items at the same time to see which they prefer.

Great thread guys and gals!

Something else to do is going to be to watch very closely when their hatching to make sure you know which snakie came out of what egg. This sounds like a very interesting experiment, and I suspect with all the brains on here we'll have all the kinks worked out by the 2008 season.

I can't wait to see the results on this.

Shannon

Well, I'm willing to try it with one clutch next year - if a few of us do, we might be able to have enough babies to provide some interesting results.

Shannon - I would probably split the clutch up into separate boxes, to ensure that they don't get mixed up ...

Incubating the eggs seperately to preserve consistency would be a definite must. Otherwise, the results *could* be skewed and basically worthless...there is no control if the imprinted offspring are unknown...

Also...as regards the Lizard Maker...why would anyone want to imprint with lizard scent? Personally, I cannot get lizards at an affordable rate to make imprinting with that scent worthwhile. IMO, the whole idea is to imprint the snakes with a readily available food source. Corns and most kings are instinctually imprinted to accept lizards and other reptiles. I want them to be imprinted with something that is outside their instinctual realm of "food source", other wise...what's the point?:shrugs:

I will try to test non-scented, Mouse Maker, and homemade Mouse Juice(in 2 varieties...adult and pinky mix) on a corn clutch next spring...

tyflier said:

why would anyone want to imprint with lizard scent?

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Is the goal 1. to test the effectiveness of scent imprinting on corn snakes, or is the goal to 2. imprint corn snakes with mouse scent?

If it's #1, then imprinting with lizard scent would compare/test the effectiveness of using scent to imprint the hatchlings while in the egg. Kinda like the strawberry scent used on alligators.

If it's @2, then the whole process is pointless as the majority of corns already are instinctively imprinted to eat mice.

I'm under the impression that the only reason for testing this hypothesis is to use it effectively with genetic morphs or pairings that regularily produce lizard preferenced hatchlings or hatchlings that typically will refuse. Quite honestly, it would be completely pointless to mouse scent every egg produced, BUT it would be completely valuable to mouse scent clutches that could be problems.

In conclusion, the necessity of using lizard scent validates the results of the mouse scent because your using a different scent on an animal that instinctively prefers mice already. It wouldn't have to be lizard if that's a problem . . . use banana instead. :shrugs:

D80

I can only speak for myself, and my goals, of course...

I fully understand the point you make, and, scientifically, it is a very good and valid point. But, as you mentioned, most of that has already been done using completely "off base" scents(such as the strawberries), and shown, at least moderately scientifically, to be effective in imprinting the animal to accept the food scent from the egg. IMO(humbly), using a lizard scenting technique would be scientifically redundant, and not something I, personally, am interested in.

For my own goals...the task is merely a chance to make it easier to get hatchlings to eat mice from the egg. Specifically, greyband, Florida, and Mexican black kingsnakes, which are in my future breeding plans. I was under the impression(since next spring will my first actual foray into breeding) that cornsnakes can often be difficult, because they instinctually trigger on anoles and other small lizards, due to the ready availability, and the reasonable size in their native areas. The only reason for me to try on my corn clutches next spring is to decide if I want to invest in Mouse Maker, or if I can create a similar product myself. If I see no difference between the commercially available scent and my homemade "mouse juice", I see no reason to invest in the commercial scent. Perhaps a "scientifically selfish" goal, but truly the only aspect of importance to me and my personal objectives.

If, through sheer observation and luck, it is concluded that cornsnake hatchlings can be more quickly "turned over" because of more ready acceptance of pinkies as a food source...so be it. It will mean less time in the hands of breeders before being sold, which, ultimately, increases the bottom line for the breeders. It would also mean happier customers, because "problem feeders" would be fewer and farther between than they currently are. But the last thing I, personally, want to do, is to imprint a 1/4 clutch of corns to readily accept a food source that is neither readily available nor cost-effective to my own means. What am I, as a small-time breeder and seller of cornsnakes, going to do with 4-6 snakes that don't want to eat anything but lizards? It would consume WAY to much of an already very marginal profit, and increase the length of time that these snakes NEED to be in my posession before they can be sold...which is, again, in my humble opinion, completely the opposite of the desired outcome.

So I agree with your motives, and the collection of the scientific data for data sake. But for me and my goals...it isn't worth it to test an already tested hypothesis, to my own financial detriment. Perhaps someone with a more readily and cost-effectively available supply of lizards would be willing to test to those ends. But I can't reasonably accomplish something like that, nor am I inclined to further test an already proven hypothesis.

I seriously hope that doesn't cause you to think less of me, or to think less of my starting this topic. It is, ultimately, a business decision for me to even begin investigating this scenario as a means to a necessary ends...not a scientific one...I just wanted to know what other people's opinions were on the matter, and if anyone had tried it, thought about trying, or had any further insight to the scenario, as I only had a small paragraph in a much larger article to go by...