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Behavior General topics or questions concerning the way your cornsnake may be acting.

2 corns in one viv
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Old 05-28-2004, 05:58 PM   #31
Arson
Clearly this is a passionate subject for many. I've had this debate many times concerning certain species of tropical fish that "appear to be lonely" or "enjoying the company of another." The fact of the matter here is far too many people are willing to take "scientific research" as fact. Let us not forget that this research is often done by a single individual who wrote a report using mostly the exact same methods as the rest of us: observation. The fact that they are experts in their fields undoubtedly offers an advantage with regard to conclusions, but we have seen perfect examples of people who have become experts by experience and observation alone (Kathy Love, for example) without any formal education in that field and to think for a second that every "scientific conclusion" is correct or set in stone violates every purpose for scientific research to begin with.

Often times I see people here spout off phrases or sentences in a factual manner that is just a regurgitation of what someone else on this forum said who they hold in high regard. Don't get me wrong, these forums and so-called "experts" are often very correct in their observations, but with a subject such as this that still remains highly controversial wouldn't it be to the advantage to everyone to keep an open mind here? There is not a clear answer for a very good reason. No scientist or true observer would ever resolve to sit on a single answer. Science and research is an on-going process.

Obviously there are dangers associated here that are real and many of you make good points. However, pointing the bony finger at someone and telling them "you're wrong" (even in not so many words) because they are less experienced or perhaps have a shorter membership here on this site only goes to show your own unwillingness to maintain that same open mind necessary for the survival of science, research, and even the herp hobby.

If other members have been able to keep more than 1 snake in a single container with success and their animals are cared for, it is not up to the rest of us to pass judgement. The fact that so many people, even here on this very forum, have been able to do this with success should be a testament by itself.
 
Old 05-28-2004, 10:35 PM   #32
moonshadow
Thumbs up well put arson!

I have to agree with you. Although I don't keep my snakes together I'm also not one to jump down someone's throat when they claim to do so. It seems that sometimes that people get a little trigger happy here and are too eager to pass judgement based on one simple question or statement. This forum is supposed to be about discussion and information sharing (am I wrong?). Anyhow, I do think the studies mentioned are interesting and some interesting thoughts have been posted in this thread.
 
Old 05-31-2004, 09:10 AM   #33
Rachel
I agree, well said and yes many people (including myself) can be 'trigger happy' when it comes to this subject. I'd like to point out, however, that I am not passing judgement. Especially not dependant on someones experience, or membership status! I am simply answering a newbies question and get frustrated when more experienced herpers are so blaze about housing together. Fine, keep your snakes together if it works for you and you know what you're doing. But DON'T tell a newbie that it's ok to throw corns in together. You need experience, imo with one snake on it's own before you go taking risks of housing together. half the people who ask 'can I keep corns together' don't even know what a regurge is, or even what a viv is!! So do you see my point now? I'm not saying to those of you who have happily kept corns together to separate them immediately. I'm simply giving 'good' advice to newbies that keeping together is not a good idea (for them). Wait until you know a bit more and then, hopefully, you'll make a more informed decision.
 
Old 05-31-2004, 09:47 AM   #34
Chip
Talking this was actually the most civil discussion on the matter that I've seen

And after re-reading the starting post, it seems the thread starter was not only new, but young. Perhaps English isn't Fruitloops native tongue, but I digress.
I own over 25 corns (not including hatchlings) and would never dream of more than an "overnighter" with a breeding pair. For someone with two or three snakes, this would be a more managable situation. Still, I see no upside. Pathogen contact would be my biggest concern, inaccurate record keeping second.
When hunting corns or other Pantherophis, you seldom find two together, even in perfect conditions. You're just as likely to find a mouse or big kingsnake under the same log or tin. No one can make an argument that they are social animals, or that they suffer without socialization or contact. I believe they would be least stressed (or "happiest") to never be handled, for that matter. But such defeats the purpose of keeping docile species!
I'll wrap up by saying that it would be very irresponsible of those of us who are "established" on the forums to give a "thumbs up" to anyone new to the hobby on the subject of housing together. I think we'd all like to see others have success keeping snakes, and any advice that will likely facilitate that is the correct advice to give.
 
Old 05-31-2004, 12:21 PM   #35
Rachel
Thanks Chip, you put my thoughts alot more eloquently! Lol
 
Old 06-02-2004, 06:48 PM   #36
Chip
as they would say in the slums of America:

Jus keepin' it real, Rach.
 
Old 06-04-2004, 01:29 PM   #37
Kel
Wink

Perhaps Kathy and Bill will be including that advice in the next edition of The Corn Snake Manual then?
 
Old 06-04-2004, 04:21 PM   #38
Arson
It's good to see everyone narrow down their advice to what it really is: an informed decision from an experienced person. I just absolutely HATE to hear anyone state anything factually with no room for re-evaluation...it's just bad science. We also have to leave room for how captive-bred species behavior changes when kept in captivity. Nobody can deny that their senses are not what they are in the wild. We can only assume that their behavior can change as well. You'd be surprised what a captive animal will do when it realizes it will never have to run for its life.

I don't think anyone here is condoning keeping two corns in one viv, but nobody should be crucified for it.
 
Old 06-05-2004, 08:42 AM   #39
Kel
Sorry Arson, I condone it in principal and under normal circumstances, but not as an absolute*; I probably didn't express myself clearly enough. Glad to know that my thirteen years of success with keeping pairs and trios together will at least be taken into account, even though ultimately we disagree on the point.

Thanks for an informative and valuable debate, which I hope has been helpful to all.

*Common sense should be applied at all times. If an animal is sick, you should separate it. If it's inherently stressed by sharing, then it should be kept solo. Or does that take us back to the start of the discussion?
 
Old 06-08-2004, 03:38 PM   #40
Chip
Or does that take us back to the start of the discussion?

Ha ha! Good ending sentence, I was preparing to type, "Here we go again... How do you 'know' they're stressed and by the time you see visible signs of (etc. ad nauseum)"

Best wishes to you all, no matter how you keep your specimens.
 

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