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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

View Poll Results: After how many generations of "pure" breeding would say a snake is pure corn?
As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me 4 8.16%
After 2 generations 0 0%
After 5 generations 5 10.20%
After 10 generations 7 14.29%
After 15 generations 1 2.04%
After 20 generations 0 0%
After 25 generations or more (if more, specify which number in the thread) 2 4.08%
If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid. 30 61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:01 AM   #1
Isoldael
Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

Proposal

To define a definition of a pure corn that can be checked and regulated.

Reason for proposal

Whether or not a snake is a hybrid is obviously a very big deal for some people. At the moment, though, we have no way to check if a corn snake is completely pure. Who is to say that one of your snake's ancestors didn't breed with another species at some point, however many generations ago? What do we even define as a hybrid? Is a snake a hybrid even if the last hybridization was 500 generations ago? What makes a corn pure? Note that this proposal was mainly sparked by a discussion we had on a facebook group - personally, I have no known hybrids nor do I intend to ever sell known hybrids as pure.

What will this proposal accomplish?

Hopefully, we will be able to eliminate some of the uncertainty people seem to have when buying from certain breeders. People will be able to say they sell pure corns and will be able to back it up with actual data instead of having people have to take their word for it. Snakes with a proven "pure" lineage might make the seller some more money and people who are completely against breeding hybrids will be able to buy only pure corns. This should entice people to register their snakes, giving us better insight in lineage.

What we need to do to make this work

1) Set a definition for pure corn snakes. To do this, we could look at the definitions of pure species / breeds that are currently in use. For most species or breeds, the definitions are along the lines of "If animal x has only been bred to pure animals of the same species/breed for y generations and displays a, b and c traits, the animal is regarded as pure". For the rest of this proposal, I'll use this definition.
2) Determine how many generations would eliminate a significant part of any hybrid influence a snake might have and make it virtually indistinguishable from "pure" corns.
3) Determine what we consider to be "pure" traits and decide how many of these a corn should display to be considered pure (if all the traits were required, we could never introduce any new morph, for instance, if we included known patterns as a trait, the tessera morph could never have been considered pure)
4) Assume that all snakes of which we don't know if they have had other species / hybrids in their lineage and that match the traits decided in step 3 are not hybrids. We need a base to start off with - as we cannot prove or disprove whether or not snakes had any hybridization in their lineage, we'll have to start this based off an assumption.
5) Have a world-wide database where people can enter their breeding data (snake id, parents, genetics, traits, etc.) to create an overview of the lineage of all snakes from the moment the database is opened.


I realize that this would take years upon years upon years to set up, but judging from all the discussions regarding morphs and people questioning their purity, this is a big deal for many people.

I'd love to hear what you guys think of setting up such a definition / database (I'm aware that some of these are already in use, although I haven't yet heard of a global one). If enough people agree, I hope we can set up a definition together using all the combined knowledge of any corn snake keeper who wishes to share it
 
Old 01-14-2013, 10:15 AM   #2
Carpe Serpentis
You might also want to consider dna testing of all said progeny. This is already done with some serious dog breeders. Dna eliminates any ambiguity as to the parents later on down the road.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 10:21 AM   #3
Isoldael
DNA might be considered for the more expensive morphs, but personally I don't see people paying for expensive DNA tests for morphs that won't bring in enough cash to cover the test.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 11:27 AM   #4
SnakeAround
I think the ACR database is good start for this. I think this would be an awesome project for people who do not get upset with the idea that somewhere in the dark ages their snakes might have an ancestor that is not 100% the same subspecies. For those people who are, it is pointless. I think it might end up anyway in people using different definitions. The easy ones would use the standard one, the less easier one might add something to the definition to be willing to call a corn pure. So, practically seen I think it would not change a lot, except that a breeder can refer to a standard to start from.
By the way, shouldn't w also look at how pure the off spring of a certain snake is to label it? A snake can look pure itself, yet produce some animals with suspicious looks. I think any corn that would be labeled as pure itself by the standard, but produces animals that would not, should not be considered a pure corn itself.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #5
MindsEyeExotics
I think more people should start using the ACR..there aren't really that many snakes registered there..or other registrys..like the lamprolines.com or royalpedigrees.com I don't see why that hasn't caught on really..I definitely plan on registering all my babies
 
Old 01-14-2013, 12:03 PM   #6
Alli_Draggy
I would think the answer would be do do what cat and dog breeders do-keep records and register specific lines so you know what the snake's parents, grandparents, etc were. If you're buying a pet, it doesn't matter, but if you're breeding, it does. And even pet quality "pedigreed" dogs and cats are worth more than ones without that history, so I expect the same would happen for snakes-that an "Anery het amel" with papers would be worth more than just a cute little anery at a pet store without any history/background.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 12:23 PM   #7
dave partington
Many of the snakes registered on the ACR come from unknown ancestry. They were not all wild-collected with witnesses. I agree in principle it would be wonderful if everybody used it. Perhaps for a hobby breeder with a relatively small number of hatchlings produced each year it is practical. Each baby is registered, photographed, uploaded, saved. If an individual has the time to do this, great.
Should every single hatchling be registered? What happens when a registered snake goes to a new home? Then the records need to be updated. I have snakes which still show as being in the ownership of the last person who was working with them, or the person before. If someone's interests change, and they no longer have an interest in corns, or some other real life situation happens to them which prevents them from updating, then what?
How much does a DNA test cost? Looks like around $60. to $100, for dogs. Each.
Assuming testing snakes would cost the same.... I don't have $36,000 to $60,000 just laying around.
Colubrids of North America share much common ancestry. Is it likely they may already contain many of the same individual genes or strands of genetic code.
If it turns out so, this may be very upsetting. When strands of code in fruitflies were found in the human geonome, it caused a little stir. Hopefully in my lifetime there will be a 'home dna test kit' available at the drugstore.
I think it's worth exploring.
Thanks for sharing.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 01:12 PM   #8
Carpe Serpentis
When speaking about such large numbers and cost associated with dna testing I agree with you Dave, in that it can be cost prohibitive. Testing individual parents though would not be so bad. Anyone wanting to verify their particular dna of their pedigree snake so to speak would then only have to test their own snakes dna agains the dna you would have on file from your breeders. No need to dna test every snake as not all snakes are worthy of breeding from any given cross as only the best are kept as breeders. Just my two cents, but the burden of testing only on those snakes that were used to breed.
 
Old 01-14-2013, 01:27 PM   #9
Isoldael
Thanks for the input so far, guys! Just wanted to bring to your attention that the main proposal isn't the database, but us defining what's pure and what's not.

I definitely would LOVE to have DNA tests for most of the snakes, but as said above, that likely wouldn't be very cost-effective
 
Old 01-14-2013, 01:51 PM   #10
Carpe Serpentis
No, its not cost effective to dna test all snakes, but dna testing breeders and even one baby out of a batch would help ensure hybrid or unknown genes didn't get mixed into the fray unknowingly. If you were in question about your particular snake, you as an individual would then have the option of dna testing against the breeders dna to prove out its pedigree as it were before you bred your snakes. This is the only way to be 100%. Anything less than that and your simply taking someone at their word and while they may mean well.... you get the idea... ultra, tessera, etc. type debates....
 

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