CornSnakes.com Forums  
  Tired of those Google and InfoLinks ads? Register and log in!

Go Back   CornSnakes.com Forums > The CornSnake Forums > The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Ultra Mystery...
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-31-2004, 09:53 AM   #71
Serpwidgets
I can take credit for suggesting that an allele like this would eventually pop up, but I think Kat was the first to specifically suggest that UltraHypo could be an allele to Amel. She and Joe had at least discussed it as a possibility before I was involved in the conversation. All I did was run with the idea and try to find existing data to prove/disprove it.

Clint, the T+ was the one I was thinking about when I was dreaming of a hypo-like allele to amel. Maybe T+ is the same thing as UltraHypo and we don't know it yet.

Does anyone know of any of his tests or results with those?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 10:47 AM   #72
Kat
Let's see... to /disprove/ the theory, we'd have to create a het ultra double homozygous amel that was provably so... not an easy task, actually...
Or to pair an ultra with an amel-morph and NOT get an expected number of ultras.
Or breed for F2s with presumed ultramels, and NOT get the expected results (true ultras, ultramels, amels).

Uh... hmm. Not sure what else... it's 8:40 in the morning, so my brain's not fully awake yet... lemme see if I think of anything better tonight.

-Kat
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:17 AM   #73
elaphe4herps
Looking back over the nice spreadsheet brilliantly created by Hurley, the second entry in for Mike Shivers says ultra X hypo equals = ultras?!?! How would this prove the current theory? Was the hypo perhaps het amel?

Also, the spreadsheet says Shivers crossed an Ultra Caramel het caramel(?) to an ultra caramel het caramel(?) and got butter motleys? and ultra caramel mots? Were the hets supposed to be motley? or the snakes were homozygous motley?

As far as proving the theory, i think we have substantial evidence for, but we might want to try and find some against, as Kat suggested. The ultra X amel morphs yeilding unexpected results would be good. Let me ponder some more...
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:17 AM   #74
Clint Boyer
It does get tricky doesn't it?

I'm glad you decided to bring this to this forum, I'm enjoying the ride even if I'm not involved.

The more data, the better. I had a pair of het Motleys bred last year and out of the dozen or so babies, not ONE was Motley! Well, this year about 50% were Motley from the same pair. If I had decided one was not het from one seasons breeding I would have been mistaken.

As far as naming goes, I'd like to see it develope slowly, something may turn up that is perfect. It usually just appears and sticks without trying.

P.S.
Quote:
we'd have to create a het ultra double homozygous amel that was provably so
Not trying to be nit picky but is this possible?
If my understanding is correct, there can only be 2 alleles at one locus making it impossible to have 2 amel and one Ultra at the same location.
Am I on the right track here?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:34 AM   #75
elaphe4herps
Very true Clint! I don't think we need to search for or formulate a name... it'll just come with time. I too am enjoying the discussion even though I am not involved first hand . And I believe you are right, it can only be homo amel (aa) or het amel het ultra (a)

I was thinking about some breeding trials. Now please correct me. But what I understand is
=normal
a= het amel
=ultra (visual ultra)
aa=amel
= ultra (super ultra)
a= Ultramel

So if we breed:

--- a//(ultramel) X aa (amel)
we should yeild 50% ultramels, 50% amels.

--- X a
we should yield and a

correct?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:43 AM   #76
Clint Boyer
Normal X Ultra = ?

Unless there is proof somewhere that I missed, isn't Ultra a simple recessive gene? Only compatible with the amel gene at the locus and not the normal gene?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 11:51 AM   #77
Clint Boyer
There will be many issues that need ironing out as this is proven.

Technically, the Ultras in the spread sheet that are listed as Ultra het amel are really het Ultra het amel.

This will take some time.................
 
Old 07-31-2004, 12:51 PM   #78
ecreipeoj
I just went through Hurley’s Spread Sheet and found 12 instances where Ultras X Homo Amels or het Amels resulted in hypo type Corns produced in the same clutch that were not expected by five different breeders. This is pretty strong evidence that the Ultras and Amels are alleles. There are more breedings between the two coming to add to or disprove Kat’s theory. I have emailed other breeders that I know of that have Ultras and hopefully we can get some more proof soon.

These 12 breedings can be explained away by the explanation that in each case the Ultras were also homo or het for Hypo AND the Corn that they were bred to was Homo or Het for Ultra or Hypo. That would be 24 possible Het situations that proved to be Hets in each and every case. These Corns were not known to be 50% or 66% chance possible hets, accept the Ultras have a remote chance to be het for many things. Most of these Corns were actually presumed to not be carrying the Hypo or Ultra genes.

In some of these breedings, the Ultras involved in the breedings have been proven to not be Homo or Het for Hypo. In these breedings, the only way to explain away the results is that the Corn they were bred to was Het or Homo for Ultra. The chances of this are slim to none. The Ultra gene is not wide spread.

There are many different levels of proof, but if Ultra X Amel or Het Amel breedings continue to produce Ultramels, how many breedings will it take to be acceptable proof? I do expect that a breeding between and Ultra X Het Amel or even and Amel, will eventually not produce an Ultramel, but this is totally expected considering the genetic match ups are total chance. Statistically, we might expect 2 or 4 Ultramels in a clutch, but it would not be all that odd to get zero, even if they are alleles. I once produced 10 out of 11 albinos from a Het amel X Het amel breeding which statistically is a very long shot at best.

If we get several more breedings between Ultras and Amels or Het amels that produce Utramels this year, it is going to be very convincing. Next year, I am sure that many Ultras will bred to Amels which will add volumes of proof. How many people out there have Amels that are het for Ultra or even Hypo. I have a couple that are known to be het for Hypo, but I have a lot that are known to not be carriers. We should start to get, and should already have gotten, many breedings that do not produce Ultramels if they are not alleles.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 01:24 PM   #79
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by elaphe4herps
Looking back over the nice spreadsheet brilliantly created by Hurley, the second entry in for Mike Shivers says ultra X hypo equals = ultras?!?! How would this prove the current theory? Was the hypo perhaps het amel?

Also, the spreadsheet says Shivers crossed an Ultra Caramel het caramel(?) to an ultra caramel het caramel(?) and got butter motleys? and ultra caramel mots? Were the hets supposed to be motley? or the snakes were homozygous motley?
Shivers results are very lacking because we don’t know the make up of the rest of the clutch. We have to interoperate his statements. I got the impression that since “every” time he bred Ultra X Hypo he produced “Hypos” indicated that the Ultra he used was het for Hypo. Shivers was trying to imply they were compatible, which we know they are not.

We don’t know how many Hypos were produce. If the entire clutch was hypo or if only a couple were produced we could come to different conclusions. Some of his Hypos could have been het for amel which would have given him the same results as if the Ultra was het for Hypo if the Ultra and Amels are alleles. We don’t know how many breedings “every time” is. Is it 1 or 20? It is probably only a couple.

It seems as if the Motley gene was bred into the Ultras by Andy Barr before Shivers got his hands on them, so some of Shivers Ultras were het for Motley and they matched up. I don‘t think that Shivers ever called his snakes Ultra Caramels. Both Shivers and Falcon called them Ultra “Ambers”, but they should have been calling them something different because an Amber is Homo for Caramel and Hypo. The Ultra “Ambers” are actually an Ultra Caramel until a new name is adopted like “GoldDust” which I am warming up to.

These Butters and Butter Motleys that Shivers produced from the Ultra Caramels, may be Butters or they could be Ultramel Caramels as well if Ultras and Amels are alleles. There seems to be more “Butters” or “Butter” Motleys that exist from this line than there should be statistically. About the only difference between the two would be a slight difference in eye color that may be very difficult to see when they are adults. Are the eyes pink or ruby?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 01:26 PM   #80
Clint Boyer
I think that now that the connection has been made (or at least the possibility), the proof as we see it now in past breedings will show us the way to more definnitive proof.

I agree that the info in the spread sheet is pretty overwhelming and I'm not refuting it. As I study that sheet (Thanks Hurley!) it does seem to come together.
 

Join now to reply to this thread or open new ones for your questions & comments! Cornsnakes.com is the largest online community dedicated to cornsnakes . Registration is open to everyone and FREE. Click Here to Register!

Google
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ultra Amber Het. Motley have arrived!!! Kens Corn Snake Photo Gallery 3 07-17-2004 01:15 PM
Butters and Amels from Ultra Hypo breeding huneymonkey Corn Snake Photo Gallery 5 07-09-2004 11:55 AM
Ultra Hypo Gene Edmund The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues 2 04-12-2004 04:19 PM
Here's what you were waiting on, Joe! Kat Corn Snake Photo Gallery 12 04-11-2004 02:40 PM
Ultra Hypo x Amber StephenRoylance Corn Snake Photo Gallery 1 02-03-2004 08:18 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:12 AM.





Fauna Top Sites
 

Powered by vBulletin® Version
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.08959389 seconds with 11 queries
Copyright Rich Zuchowski/SerpenCo