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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

hybrids vs. nonhybrids
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:51 AM   #61
Midnght
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForkedTung View Post
When I was the foreman of a woodshop, we had farmers etc... that would come in and haul away all of our wood shavings and chips. One thing they steered very clear of was any walnut we had. Apparently when the horse would urinate on the walnut it would react with a chemical in the chips that would then be transferred to the horses bloodstream, via the hooves, and sicken or kill it....Just an FYI! I don't plan on experimenting with any of my snakes substrates.
Hmm now that's interesting. something I can key in on in a google search which might sway me. Thanks. I'll check that out.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:52 AM   #62
tyflier
Hold on, Midnight. Nobody said your animals were poorly cared for...they said it could be better.

Calci-Sand is horrible. IMO, the worst type of particulate substrate. Pick some of it up and look really closely at it. See all thoser tiny, jagged edges? See how it kind of looks like little puzzle pieces? That's how they act in the digestive system of a snake, too. They clump together, interlocking and causing impactions. You don't need a link to prove this, look at it, and get some wet in the palm of your hand. That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.

Now look at your ground English Walnut shells. See those sharp, pointed edges? They cause cuts and scrapes which can lead to infections. It's also quite uncomfortable. Don't believe me? Try sleeping with a few grains in your bed. Again...you don't need a link to prove it, just grab a handful, look at it closely, and than squeeze it tightly in your hand. OOOPS! Careful, did you cut yourself? Stuff is sharp, ain't it?

And just as a matter of fact...ONE snake for 15 years does not make a good base from which to make projections about your husbandry. 50 snakes for 15 years? You're getting there. 100 snakes for 25 years? That's better. How about the combined thousands of snakes over the combined hundreds of years that we have as a unit in this community. Gives you a little broader study group to work with, don't it?
 
Old 12-18-2008, 11:59 AM   #63
starsevol
By the way, KJUN and Chris (tyflier) are 2 of those people that have a zillion times more knowledge and experiance than a noob like me!
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:05 PM   #64
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier View Post
That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.
Actually, no. I agree that Calci-sandcan be more abrasive that rounded "playground sand," and that it is SO dusty that it can lead to respiratory distress in some individual snakes. I agree that over-ingestion can lead to soft tissue mineralization and eventual death. I agree that impaction is possible, but the chance is MUCH, MUCH less than with silica-based sand. Your water analagy is false because a snake's digestive tract is highly acidic. Calci-Sand much be ingested in large quantities to be able to pass through the stomach undigested to lead to possible impaction of the lower GI tract. Yes, it is a concern, but it is not the biggest concern as you seem to believe it is. Drop some in a glass of water, agitate it, and see what happens before you compare pure water to the actions of a digestive tract.

Still, I agree with you completely - Calci-Sand is NOT he best choice for a snake's substrate.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:07 PM   #65
Midnght
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier View Post
Wait...you've owned cornsnakes in the past, and you had no idea that this snake wasn't a corn? This animal has albino Cal. king written all over it. It LOOKS more like a king than a corn.

Sorry, but that is your fault. I don't assume shoppers are uninformed, I assume they have researched what they are looking at. I can't answer questions that they don't ask, and it isn't my job to be a mind reader.

I sell snakes locally and over the internet. I also work in a pet shop with exotic parrots and reptiles. I can't start telling people about the various snakes in the shop until I know what they know, and what they don't know. At the very least, they need to show an interest and ask about a specific snake.

The same is true at shows. With thousands of people asking questions all day for 3 or 4 days straight...how could you expect a breeder to offer you information you haven't asked for...

Afterall...we breed snakes, not read minds. We are animal lovers not future seers...

On the simplest side x mixed with x could have been on the label. Or hey how bout Hybrid that's a term that brings up questions.

This could quickly come about to a nice debate on how lazy or bad it is to lable something with one name or another. I mean why not Jungle King? Naww doesn't sound as good. You don't have to tell people anything but IMHO you're just as much the problem as me not knowing at a pet show going hmm let's see Aztec Corn, Lavender Corn, Jungle Corn. Should be a corn snake. But maybe aztec and lavendars aren't let me check. Sorry Jungle Corn is grossly mislabled and perpetuates obsfuscation over a breed.
But we can agree to disagree.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:13 PM   #66
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnght View Post
Sorry Jungle Corn is grossly mislabled and perpetuates obsfuscation over a breed.
I've said that for years, but it doesn't change the fact that your snake didn't look like a cornsnake or that the ENTIRE industry (as sick as it makes me feel!) uses cornsnakes as the dumping ground: Jungle corns not kings, Turbo corns not pines or gophers, Creamiscle corns not rats, etc. Search the old threads before re-hashing the same old arguments again.

One poster her uses the better term "EmoryCorn" for rootbeers, so the confusion is reduced. So is marketability, though....lol. Along those lines, I know one guy that sells his as Jungle Korns. Notice the appropriate misspelling. That would reduce the confusion, and I respect him for it. That SHOULD have reduced your confusion, too. In other words, I agree with you on principle. Together, we all make about 8 people out of the entire industry that see the problems.......lol.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:24 PM   #67
Midnght
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier View Post
Hold on, Midnight. Nobody said your animals were poorly cared for...they said it could be better.

Calci-Sand is horrible. IMO, the worst type of particulate substrate. Pick some of it up and look really closely at it. See all thoser tiny, jagged edges? See how it kind of looks like little puzzle pieces? That's how they act in the digestive system of a snake, too. They clump together, interlocking and causing impactions. You don't need a link to prove this, look at it, and get some wet in the palm of your hand. That's called "clumping". GREAT for cat litter...not so good for digestive tracts.

Now look at your ground English Walnut shells. See those sharp, pointed edges? They cause cuts and scrapes which can lead to infections. It's also quite uncomfortable. Don't believe me? Try sleeping with a few grains in your bed. Again...you don't need a link to prove it, just grab a handful, look at it closely, and than squeeze it tightly in your hand. OOOPS! Careful, did you cut yourself? Stuff is sharp, ain't it?

And just as a matter of fact...ONE snake for 15 years does not make a good base from which to make projections about your husbandry. 50 snakes for 15 years? You're getting there. 100 snakes for 25 years? That's better. How about the combined thousands of snakes over the combined hundreds of years that we have as a unit in this community. Gives you a little broader study group to work with, don't it?
True those amounts would be better. But lets see there's no data like that is there?

Had no cuts had no infections maybe it's better thna it used to be? Things do change.

At the very least your all concerns have me looking deeper into the subject.
what I find is varied. Most issues are in rgards to Bearded Dragons. Which sound slike if assumed bad for one reptile it must be bad for all. Definately a way to think on the safe side but still doesn't prove there's issues towards snakes.

What I find mor einteresting and a bigger concern is the potential for mold. Which in context gives me more reason to change than anything else.
Yet at the same time. This can happen with aspen to. The key factor to mold being how often you clena up. I've never had mold so I'm doing that right. I could certainly chang eto aspen but the same mold chance is there. It wouldn't make a differance either way which I used in the regaqrds of mold cause I keep a clean cage.

But I'm still looking a little more hard evidence. I see other people and posts who've had no issues, I see those with issues are talking about Bearded Dragons. But hey I'm still investigating. If you've got more direct leads by all means pass them on.

But Sure my one snake experience doesn't amount to much, but then there's no info about anyone havings used more and the issues they had to prove it's 100% bad either because they simply go with the norm and don't venture outside it.

Just for the record. I did not choose this substrate years ago just to be different or go against the grain. It was reported as safe, looked nice, and was a good price.

But I'm delving deeper. If you have directions to look about snakes aqnd this by all means point em out.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:27 PM   #68
Midnght
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUN View Post
Actually, no. I agree that Calci-sandcan be more abrasive that rounded "playground sand," and that it is SO dusty that it can lead to respiratory distress in some individual snakes. I agree that over-ingestion can lead to soft tissue mineralization and eventual death. I agree that impaction is possible, but the chance is MUCH, MUCH less than with silica-based sand. Your water analagy is false because a snake's digestive tract is highly acidic. Calci-Sand much be ingested in large quantities to be able to pass through the stomach undigested to lead to possible impaction of the lower GI tract. Yes, it is a concern, but it is not the biggest concern as you seem to believe it is. Drop some in a glass of water, agitate it, and see what happens before you compare pure water to the actions of a digestive tract.

Still, I agree with you completely - Calci-Sand is NOT he best choice for a snake's substrate.
So in essences. Don't use better safe than sorry.
But 100% use definate don't use.
A diluted mixture you wouldn't use but isn't all that bad as 100%?
 
Old 12-18-2008, 12:32 PM   #69
Midnght
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUN View Post
I've said that for years, but it doesn't change the fact that your snake didn't look like a cornsnake or that the ENTIRE industry (as sick as it makes me feel!) uses cornsnakes as the dumping ground: Jungle corns not kings, Turbo corns not pines or gophers, Creamiscle corns not rats, etc. Search the old threads before re-hashing the same old arguments again.

One poster her uses the better term "EmoryCorn" for rootbeers, so the confusion is reduced. So is marketability, though....lol. Along those lines, I know one guy that sells his as Jungle Korns. Notice the appropriate misspelling. That would reduce the confusion, and I respect him for it. That SHOULD have reduced your confusion, too. In other words, I agree with you on principle. Together, we all make about 8 people out of the entire industry that see the problems.......lol.
Yeah what's done is done i'm not happy about it. You can kick me all you want for not noticing the variation in the head. It was a baby and characterstics change as they get bigger. The pratical upshot. I'll never attempt to house together ever again. Two losses is two too many for me because they are loved pets for me not breeding stock I my part with some day and have to take the risks.

So there's a positive for what it's worth.
 
Old 12-18-2008, 03:26 PM   #70
diamondlil
There seem to be some bad-tempered and testy responses on this thread, which started as a simple request for visual markers to identify hybrid corns.
For what it's worth, this question has been asked a few times, and the general consensus is that there are corn hybrids that are virtually impossible to tell from pure corns, and that there is virtually no guarantee that any given corn has 100% corn genetics. Here's a previous thread
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthr...=hybrid+marker
 

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