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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Pied questions
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Old 02-13-2017, 11:10 PM   #11
Dragonling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SODERBERGD View Post
PS (pied-sided) Bloodreds (both alleles)
Wait, am I reading this wrong? Is p/s allelic to diffused if McDonald and SMR p/s are not allelic? Perhaps this could be another example of genetic linkage, like what we (theoretically) see with charcoal and lava?

I did say I had done almost no research on p/s. For whatever reason it doesn't interest me much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackerhead View Post
On a side note, my testing has also shown that white crossing the dorsal ridge, i.e. spine, is associated with spinal deformities. So we may never see white markings in corns similar to what we see in BP's arising from the P/S gene.
Now that is sad to hear.
 
Old 04-03-2017, 11:17 PM   #12
Highball
Last year I bred a medium expression (homozygous) pied male that is supposedly SMR line to a VMS-produced homozygous pied (assumed SMR line) female and produced 100% pied offspring. I bred the same male that is supposedly SMR line to a Walter Smith-produced McDonald line pied female and got 100% pied offspring including my highest expression male. So that's interesting that SMR and McDonald appear to be allelic/compatible in my hands.

Pied does certainly appear to be recessive. Whether it's linked or not to diffused is unable to be determined without molecular studies. The fact no one has officially separated the two, which should be possible if they are linked, makes me wonder if it's an additional mutation within the gene responsible for diffusion, or a "version" of diffused.

In terms of determining whether a particular offspring is pied, my hatchling pieds have clear scales (completely free of pigment) where the pied marking will eventually be. You can see their organs through the clear scales. All my pieds have been hypo or ghost. With the pieds I work with, there are additional obvious differences between pieds and normal diffuseds once you stare at enough including their heads and the level of diffusion.
 
Old 04-04-2017, 08:52 AM   #13
SODERBERGD
The results you got were not because the two mutations are allelic, but here's the history. When Walter Smith asked me--years ago--if I had an adult female Bloodred with any white on its sides, I sent him the only one I had at the time (she had perhaps 1/20 of the lateral white on the male McDonald-Line pied-sided corn he mated to her). Something like 20 babies revealed NO lateral white, so the presumption was that either the white on mine was not the result of a mutation OR that the two parents possessed mutations that were on different alleles. Sure enough, when I raised some of my share of the breeding co-op, I got SOME p/s babies. Also, when I bred one of those males to the original SMR-Line female, half the babies were p/s. This demonstrated that all of the F1 babies were, of course, het for both p/s alleles. Since then, many have been bred back and forth, to the point that some of them are homozygotes for one of the lines, but only het for the other. Some are double-homozygotes, expressing white from both Lines, and that is likely why you got p/s homozygotes via pairing yours with a McDonald animal. Since there are no outward markers for either, it's essentially impossible to say which allele is possessed by a respective visual P/S Bloodred. Likewise, some McDonald-line homozygotes out there could be het for SMR-line, and vice-versa?
 
Old 04-04-2017, 11:28 AM   #14
zorro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highball View Post
Last year I bred a medium expression (homozygous) pied male that is supposedly SMR line to a VMS-produced homozygous pied (assumed SMR line) female and produced 100% pied offspring.
The VMS pieds are definitely from the SMR Line.
John
 
Old 04-04-2017, 12:17 PM   #15
Highball
Interesting Don. Thanks for that explanation. That had crossed my mind. A snake carrying both versions of p/s and possibly homozygous for both is crazy =) I wonder if they have an additive effect, like an animal homo for both is higher expression? I'll have to see what comes of my projects crossing animals labeled as different lines.

John, the mom of this male that produces pieds with the WS McDonald female and the VMS SMR female is Pandora, and his dad is the hypo het anery from Bayou that you own(ed), or so I was told.

It's possible I'm making homozygous SMR pieds, and with the McDonald, I'm making SMR pieds het McDonald.
 
Old 04-04-2017, 01:54 PM   #16
zorro
I tried for several years to produce really great P/S from two visual hypo P/S and only getting medium expression at best. I had gotten a hypo bloodred from Rob at Bayou Reptiles that he called a "no pied P/S" and he produced the best hypo pied I had ever produced, including several high expression. I never did figure out what was going on but Don (SMR) has worked longer with them than anyone.
John


Quote:
Originally Posted by Highball View Post
Interesting Don. Thanks for that explanation. That had crossed my mind. A snake carrying both versions of p/s and possibly homozygous for both is crazy =) I wonder if they have an additive effect, like an animal homo for both is higher expression? I'll have to see what comes of my projects crossing animals labeled as different lines.

John, the mom of this male that produces pieds with the WS McDonald female and the VMS SMR female is Pandora, and his dad is the hypo het anery from Bayou that you own(ed), or so I was told.

It's possible I'm making homozygous SMR pieds, and with the McDonald, I'm making SMR pieds het McDonald.
I think I remember that male although I don't think I used him for breeding but I remember seeing some really cool anery pieds.
 
Old 04-04-2017, 02:47 PM   #17
Highball
This is the male from Pandora x bayou hypo het anery that I purchased as a hatchling from a young lady on here. He made a high expression son with one of my females and a couple medium expression daughters with another female, the remainder being low or very low expression. I chalk it up to individual expression potential at this point because yeah I don't get why a pair can produce only medium and never high expression offspring. Like the pair has a range maximum.
 
Old 04-04-2017, 03:09 PM   #18
Highball
I love hearing these kinds of stories so I appreciate you sharing them John and Don. Sorry if I hijacked the thread but I think this history stuff is interesting and can help explain related questions.
 

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