Ultra Mystery...

(I am not sure but it seems we are climbing a very slippery slope if we explore this hypo being an allele to amel possiblity)

Better to explore and find the answer than to just sit around scratching our heads like idiots. (Okay, so we still might wind up scratching our heads after numerous pairings, but it's worth a shot, IMO.)

-Kat

Originally Posted by Rich Z

I can't wait to try to explain to people that if you breed a GoldDust to an Amber you will just get Caramels, but breed it to a Butter and you will get Ambers.

And when they ask what those Ambers are het for, my head will burst into flames.

Does breeding GoldDust to GoldDust give you Siamese cats?

This is why I wanted to make a genetics chapter that explains it from the ground up. IMO my book's Quick Genetics section will become more and more valuable as these types of new mutants are discovered. If you look at it in the way everyone likes to think of recessive traits, it's a bunch of total nonsense. If you look at it the "right" way, it totally falls into place.

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj

What is the correct term for these dark eyed Hypo/Amels if they are a result of the Ultra being on the same allele as Amel if they are au? Are they het for both Ultra and Amel? This would be confussing since double hets are usually on different alleles and normal looking How about half het for Ultra and amel? LOL There must be another term for it when they show a mixed phenotype between the two.

I don’t see how they could be Homo for Ultra and Amel. Are they homo utlra/amels? Is it possible for a corn to be double homo for Ultra and Amel if they are on the same allele? uuaa. How about triple homo uuaaau or what ever the au would be considered? This also doen’t seem possible if they are on the same allele.

The correct terminology is: (see also, page 18 of my book)
When a gene pair is made of two identical copies, it is homozygous.
When a gene pair is made of two different copies, it is heterozygous.
(Those are the only two cases that are possible. It is also impossible for them to be double homo or double hetero on a single locus.)

Therefore, Homozygotes are:
AA
aa
uu

and Heterozygotes are:
Aa
Au
au


It's the same situation as Motley Stripe. Check out the "Mag" demonstration of alleles on pages 16-17.

Also, I would suggest calling it "dilute" for the time being. IMO psuedo or quasi don't fit the bill... whatever it is, it's not fake. I don't think we should call motley "quasi-stripe or psuedo-stripe." And IMO the appearance of "hypo" anywhere in the name is just a bad idea right now. "Dilute" would avoid any confusion between the several differing lines of "Ultra" and "Ultra Hypo" and other stuff being thrown around, some of which may be completely unrelated to what we're looking at here.

I'll have to go back again and read up on Rat/Mouse conventions, but they do have this situation, there is a dilute allele to their amelanism, which is why I had been suggesting for a while now that one of these many "new hypos" might turn out to be an allele to amel and confuse everyone half to death. (mooohahahaha!)

I guess I should be grateful that people are actually taking the idea seriously... even if we're wrong about this one, eventually it's gonna happen.

In mice, the "Extreme Dilute" and "Albino" are alleles.

The homozygous Albino is white with pink eyes.

The homozygous "Extreme Dilute" has very light gray fur, but it has black eyes.

When "Extreme Dilute" is crossed with Albino, the offspring have black eyes, and are almost completely white. (They take on an in-between appearance.)

Wow, I left for a few hours, and this entire Ultra debate has been put to rest? Sheesh! You guys sure do work fast! I am starting to get excited about the possibility of a gene sharing the amel locus.

So let me get this straight Chuck. If the animal is AA it's normal, Aa would be het amel , aa would indicate homo amel. Thats easy. Now if the animal is uu, it's ultra (emtreme dilute) and therefore Au would also look like uu, right? So, what does an au animal look like? ultra phenotype, but het amel?

I am not real close (location-wise and relationship-wise) to be in the position to ASK for an ultra or het breeding loan, but I would definetly take anyone up that offers . I would be most willing to help solve this mystery and wouldn't even be interested in the siblings. I just want to be able to say that I helped ! I would be able to get at least 3, maybe 4 clutches with a male.

Walter will have to tell us who the father of this anerythristic is/was. The mother of this anerythristic was one of those ruby freckled snows. Hence, the anerythristic is at least het. for amelanistic.

Results:
eight amelanistics
six "normals"
three hypos (?ultras?)

Originally Posted by elaphe4herps

Now if the animal is uu, it's ultra (emtreme dilute) and therefore Au would also look like uu, right? So, what does an au animal look like? ultra phenotype, but het amel?

I'm thinking it would go like this:
Genotype "uu" ("Dilute" phenotype)


Genotype "au" ("Extreme Dilute" phenotype)


(Borrowing Joe's and Kat's images from earlier in the thread...)

Genotype "Au" would look:
Totally normal if "u" is recessive to "A",
Totally UltraHypo if "u" is dominant over "A."
Something between if "u" and "A" are codominant to each other.


-----

huneymonkey, what was "5 is an Ultra hypo het Motley poss amel. Actually now that the eggs hatched, I don't believe she is het amel." bred to? And what are the results so far?

an Opal male from Rich. The results are they all look like this one. 12 eggs total. They look somewhat like the mother did as a hatchling.

OK, I can't look at this thread and interpret it without making a spread sheet...so here it is. This is my interpretation of all of the reported results within this thread regarding ultra. Colored entries are the same snake/clutch. From what I see here, it follows Serp's theory to a 'T'. Every result could be explained by Ultra being an allele to Amel.




(last updated 8-1-04)

I need to look back through and make sure everything is there and correct, but that's how I read the information presented.

p.s. if I didn't know who was who, I just plugged one in mother and one in father...usually with the ultra as the father if it wasn't stated.

So, based on that, all of the following corns (which are either amel or het amel) would have to be het for Ultra...

Kat's Lavender (from Don S)
Shiver's Amel
Shiver's Hypo
Shiver's Amel het Caramel
Shiver's Butters and Caramels
Rich Z's Caramel Motley
Rich Z's Bloodred from Don Soderberg
Don S's Butter
Don S's Anery (from Walter Smith's Ruby-freckled)
Jason's Opals

...meaning the gene was all over the place, yet it never showed itself in any of these bloodlines.

Or, it's an allele to amel. This seems like a slam dunk at this point, but I'd like to hear if Paul H has any alternative ideas.