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How do you feel about God.

My point is that no matter which side you are arguing from, you aren't going to prove it one way or another. It's all debate and it will always come down to what you FEEL is correct based on your own interpretations until our species as a whole gains a whole hell of a lot more intelligence.

Megan, I understand where you are coming from! But remember, what someone else believes has no bearing on what is going to actually happen to you, at least, not in this country. Ultimately you have no idea (none of us do) of what is REALLY going to happen to us. Thus the word 'faith'. What if they're right? What if you're right! I think the most reasonable result will be 'none of us are right'. Thus I think talking to each other in a kindly fashion is in order.

My POINT about the atoms, etc (which seems to not be understood)... is that what is really out there is beyond our comprehension, as of right now; including gravity and magnetism!! :grin01: And will be for some time. IF there's a God he's much more than any of us understand and obviously us applying human qualities such as 'your bad, I'm good', 'the devil has horns', 'heaven is in the sky', 'God is angry' is all logically incorrect. People seem to put blinders on and apply human emotion to God and then argue about it. I'm clearly not explaining myself good enough here.
 
I said this earlier and it must have been missed but honestly, it's not beyond my belief (and I'm not kidding around), that aliens could have been involved in our creation and development as a species. Like I said, check out Ancient Aliens - on the History Channel (and books).
 
If you don't believe it, why does it offend you?

I don't ask in a snide manner. I am curious as to the reasoning behind why someone would be so put off about something they claim is total hogwash.
 
I was wondering that myself but I think that delves into the world of Psychology and contentedness with oneself and your own beliefs.
Or is the fear or persecution, but in that respect - you then turn around and do the same thing you fear to someone else, without realizing it.

That's something that can be said for all of us. I get passionate at times but I have to remind myself that all points are still mute and irrelevant at the end.

The one that drove me nuts was that Lavender. I never understood that guy. lol
 
atoms are understood, so is gravity and magnetism to a very great extent. maybe the human race doesnt know everything there is to know about those things but they are making one hell of an effort.

thats kinda my point. try to understand how things work. try to reason it out.

dont just sit back and say, well i guess god will take care of all those things. thats just a way of reaping the benefits without putting forth the effort. theres a reason the laws of physics are called laws and not guesses.

the cold hard fact is folks, the bible is a really old book that has been edited and re-edited and re-edited until it fit some old kings liking. it was written during a time when there was no medicine, no hospitals, and no science. ppl back then were extremely superstitious and would attribute anything "strange" that they might have seen to a higher power. an open flame hitting a pocket of methane would have seemed godly to them. the same with the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings. it seemed otherworldly to them. just because a book exists doesnt make it irrefutable fact. the burden of proof is on the one that claims that they know the truth, not the one that denies that claim.
 
Actually, no. Gravity and magnetism are NOT understood in the least. Just how to make use of them. This is the field I work in. ;)
I should note though, still you aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. But it's not really that big of a deal. I wasn't coming from either end of the religion spectrum I was attempting to point out the way (from both sides) we tend to view things as human beings, which is generally inaccurate. More-so trying to throw a different way of thinking out there.
 
Can't rep Knox again. I want to say that you inspire me.
Already took care of it. Think of it as from us both then.
LOL, and so can I, Nanci. AND Camby too, for the same reason--inspiration.

Check this out : I am an over-edumacated (implies moving away from 'belief', in my own personal experience) under-paid (aren't we all) adult male homosexual...AND...a Christian.
Wrap your mind around that. LOL...trying keeping it light folks.
But seriously, it all fits in my head...and that's what matters, what gets me out of bed in the morning, and gives me hope when everything seems hopeless.

And although I am quite capable, I am not going to spend the next two days explaining how and why this indeed does fit in my head.
Although, do please note : in the New Testament, in his visit here to deliver the 'new message', Jesus never once from his own lips voiced any precise prescription on how-to's, when's, and with-whom's...regarding the subject of sexuality. So if he neglected the topic, and considering the lessons and parables he DID emphasize, it seems IMHO to not rank highly in importance to him...and his new message. Just saying'....LOL.
If you find a direct quote by JC that contradicts the above,...I will embrace my mistake like a man, eat my words, and rep you well. And still believe what I believe. LOL.

And dc is _not_ a bad guy. Ever heard of (secret) random acts of kindness?
 
so you contradicted me on two out of the three. like i said science doesnt have all of the answers, but it has a heck of a lot more than the bible. the bible does not answer any relevant questions, all it does is muddy the waters with ancient religious nonsense. if it werent for religion holding us back as a species maybe there would be answers for your magnetism and gravity. and fossils, and atoms, and evolution, and physics, and chemistry, and do i need to go on?
 
I was not arguing or contradicting you in general other than you were misinterpreting what I was saying - and still are. I'm not arguing any of those ideas other than the bible is a both a recording of histories and reasons/means/ways to treat each other appropriately. I'm not going to say anything is 'non sense', etc. Also, there's absolutely no proof or reasoning to say that religion is holding anyone back, people that use it as a means to a selfish ends will do so with anything they can anyway and it's inherent in the nature of that person doing so. For all you know, religion can and has inspired some of the more creative minds when it might do the opposite for someone else.

Yay Eric! I can rep you again! :)
Eric put a little of what I was *trying* to say much more eloquently.
 
This is a bit long, and sorry for my ramblings. I just wanted to provide a bit of back story as an explanation for what I believe.

I was born into a Christian family. I was raised Lutheran (LCMS branch, for those of you who would recognize that). I was baptized as a baby, and went through Confirmation, serving my time as both an altar boy, an usher, and a choir member. But all of the time, I couldn't shake one single, nagging thing from my head.

At around age 11 or so, I realized there was something different about me. Something that I knew I could never change, as much as I tried. I'm sure I had always known I was gay, but that was about the age that I really started to understand what it meant. I had never really put a second thought to it, because it was natural to me. But all of the teachings, everything I had learned, had told me that that was wrong, immoral, and that I would burn in hell because of it, no matter what I did with the rest of my life. A 'sin' that I was born with had damned me to an eternity of fire and brimstone.

That didn't sit right with me. How could something like that be true? Why would a god whom I loved so much create someone like me that couldn't be saved? I've heard the whole "If you ask, you'll be forgiven" clause. But why should I have to ask forgiveness for simply being what I am? That was a point when I started to sink into a deep depression. I eventually came around to the conclusion a few years later that if there was no hope for me, then what was the point of finishing out this life? The end result was going to be the same. Might as well get a jump start on my eternal damnation.

When I was 14 years old, I attempted suicide. I didn't want to finish out a life where I knew I would be ridiculed and mocked, never truly loved, and I could never achieve eternal grace and happiness. My father found me in a tub full of warm water, colored red with my blood. All of the color had drained from me, I was unconscious, and barely breathing. Without a moment's hesitation, he dragged me from the tub, wrapped me up, and drove to the emergency room, breaking almost every single traffic law along the way. I was immediately rushed into the ER where a team of doctors started working on me, but to no avail. My breaths grew more and more shallow. My heart eventually stopped beating. I died in that emergency room. The doctors called a time of death. I had succeeded. My parents would never know that their sweet baby boy would have grown to be an abomination that they would never get to see again when they ascended into heaven. Then something happened. About two or three minutes after they had given up, and my parents were crying over my body, my heart started beating. I took a breath... and then another. After having been pronounced dead, I was coming back to life.

When I came to, I couldn't believe my eyes. I was alive! I didn't know how, or for what reason, but I was. In the following weeks, there were a lot of questions. I avoided most of them, but the one that I would always answer was "So what was it like on the other side? What did you see?". Sadly, the only answer I could provide was "Nothing". The true answer was a bit more complex than that, and I came forth with it eventually after having had time to myself to ponder it's meaning. I did a lot of thinking following that event. What if everything I knew, and had been taught, was wrong? I wanted so very much to believe in an afterlife. To believe that I would get to see all of my family and friends again once we had all passed on.

To this day, I still don't know if what I saw was a hallucination from lack of oxygen to my brain, or if what I saw was truly the other side. It's very difficult to explain in words what happened. But the recurring theme of what happened was "You haven't learned your lesson yet. You cannot pass to your next life. You're still needed here." I saw images of my past lives and selves. People I had been, and the people I had loved. I had been a variety of people. Men and women of all races, gay and straight, it didn't matter.

It was at that point that I came to terms with who I was. I knew that there was nothing wrong with me, and that I was exactly who I was supposed to be. And there was nothing that some ancient storybook passed down and repeatedly mistranslated through thousands of years was going to tell me otherwise.

No, I do not remain a Christian. I do, however, remain spiritual. I know that there will be an afterlife, once all of the lessons I am supposed to learn have been learned, and can be added to my true souls collective knowledge. Once it's purpose is complete can I ever truly pass on into the eternal collective. I do not believe in "one true god", but a collective of souls that have completed their missions on this planet and others, that guide those still of this realm to be better people and live their lives to the fullest extent possible.
 
If you don't believe it, why does it offend you?

I don't ask in a snide manner. I am curious as to the reasoning behind why someone would be so put off about something they claim is total hogwash.

I will work to answer this as best I can, and as honestly.

Imagine you are in a town. Everyone in this town tells you you are evil. You don't believe it, but it's something you hear, everyday. Restaurants won't serve you because you offend them. People won't accept help from you. Businesses won't run your advertisements, or if they do, there is general outrage over them even existing. Every day, people are telling you are horrible. And that, on top of all that, you deserve to be tortured. Every day. All day. For the rest of your life. Without end. They tell you this to your face, or in subtler ways. But in the end, it boils down to the fact that they view you as corrupted, as less. You live in a town where you are viewed as barely human, and you can't escape the town.

Would you not become upset, being told every day that you are nasty? Would you not become upset, having people express joy at the thought of your (supposedly) deserved pain?
Would you not become upset if people wouldn't hire you, wouldn't let you near their children?
Would you not become upset if people were allowed to tell you these things, but if you told them that you believe differently that you are then committing the awful crime of mockery?

I pass by billboards promoting christianity quite often. I have heard long commercials on the radio promoting God and saying outright that I am worthless without religion. I have an aunt who told me when I was 11 that I was the daughter of satan. I've had people tell me "Look at you helping these animals. What a good christian girl you are." After 16 years of being not-christian it's starting to get a little old.






- This is a great one, so full of hypocrisy it hurts. "They need to shut up."


http://www.alternet.org/story/15291...ght_covering_up_a_rejection_of_atheist_money/
 

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I am so glad there is hardly any discrimination against atheist/agnosts over here... at least not that I am aware of. Except the refusal of my local first aid organisation to assist at events on Sundays because there Christian sponsors don't want to. That is discrimination against people who choose to not live their lives as they do, e.g. according to Christian rules (at least their interpretation of them).But I'm sure they don't see it that way. I do know there are people who would even refuse to be helped by a doctor on a Sunday in case of emergency, I do agree one has to be pretty consequent to do so, I do respect their 'hardcore' devotion to their belief.
 
What I don't understand is this perception by Megan and perhaps others that all? most? half? Christians think non-Christians are evil or horrible. I don't think that. I can't really say any other Christians I know think that. My family was quite religious, ministers in every generation, etc., but I wasn't raised to believe that and never heard it expressed by family members or church members. Where does that come from? Why does a preachy billboard threaten you so much? I have plenty of friends that I love dearly that are not Christian. I don't actually think about it much.
 
I hope that nothing I wrote was interpreted as trying to illicit a response in a negative way.

Guys, it's sad but true - some claiming the name of Christ are the most obnoxious, hate-filled people I have seen. These are the "wackos" that provide energy for the stereotypes that I see portrayed on t.v. We are not all like them.

There are also non-believers who take great joy in condemning Christians simply for the fact that they disagree and want to trample anyone claiming the name of Christ.

I have many atheist friends - one is a doctor I see quite frequently during my pacemaker clinics. He takes jabs at me, but they are all friendly. We respect each other, and would do anything in the world for each other.

If I have offended anyone, I ask forgiveness. My intent during this whole thread was not to attack, but rather educate - to Biblically substantiate why my beliefs are what they are. Not to give a defense, but to offer a look into my life, since it was asked.

The Bible IS very offensive toward sin. But I don't feel it is my place to "Bible Thump", to go around condemning everyone. God will do that in His time.

I am called by my Lord to love Him and love others. Including people who do not share my faith. After all, why would ANYONE ever listen, with true interest, to the gospel if Christians were all egotistical butt holes? That makes no sense to me.

Have a wonderful Thursday everyone. Enjoy the time with your families. Remember, we have snakes in common at the very least. I hope to remain "friends" with you all and to even cross paths one day.

With much respect to all,

Michael
 
p.s. Isn't it interesting that the people with whom Christ was most confrontational were "religious" people who's hearts were wicked - the pharisees and sadducees?

But He showed love and compassion to cheating tax collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners who were hurting and truly desiring to hear him.

How I wish more Christians showed humility and gratitude for their own salvation. Maybe that would come across to others instead of pompous arrogance, looking down their noses at anyone who is not "in the club".

This sickens me.
 
I do not believe in God. If I'm right, when I do nothing will happen. No harm.
If I'm wrong, I guess I'm screwed.
If I did believe in God, and this belief was correct, upon death I would assume that I would be rewarded. Yay!
But if my belief was wrong, well I wasted a lifetime in His name, huh? Sad...

Here is the deal, folks, if He is real than he is the biggest a-hole I've ever heard of. The reason I don't believe is because I refuse to believe that He would allow all the bad stuff that happens because it was "All in His name". I know the God's Name Death Toll has already been mentioned, but why don't we examine other things like the Westboro Baptist Church. They protest the funerals of soldiers, and worse, children, claiming that their deaths are God's way of punishing us for homosexuality. Really? And God just allows it to happen. I would expect him to be smiting them with lightening bolts, or maybe some gang rape in a dark shower somewhere. But no, it just keeps on keeping on. Nice guy, Huh?

Another thing that bothers me in that people who believe in God will persecute other people of other religions, Buddhists, Vikings, and Native Americans, for not believing in "the one true God", but I have never come across any member of another religion who has persecuted anyone for believing in God. God is apparently very intolerable. I guess that's why there was that commandment made, something about false idols. That is also pretty vain of him, don't you think? But wait, isn't vanity a sin? God should go to hell, I guess.

And I could go on, but I have a turkey to stuff down my throat. Gluttony is delicious. You religious people should try it.
 
It actually can, this is what I was mentioning earlier, about the start of life and the way it coincides with the bible with Adam being created from God's rib and clay. If we break down the structure of life, we get nucleotides- these are naturally found all over the place in fragments. The real trouble is how did they all come together. There is a type of clay that seems to attract these to it and bind them to each other, creating simple, microscopic life forms. Now, I do find it FASCINATING that ancient people knew this and wrote of it into the Bible. Many believe that God created us, and perhaps he did. But I think it is far more likely that we naturally evolved on our planet, and as we progressed, an intelligent being or beings, interfered with our DNA to produce humans as we know them, I also believe that the Bible illustrates this very well with God and Angels. Perhaps this intelligent being told us of how everything took place naturally, and the young human beings interpreted this as them or it creating us. I should however say, that I am always very moved when meeting people who so passionately believe in God- It's very powerful, and I respect anyone who does believe. I also respect those that do not. And back to the morals of what is right and wrong, it again comes down to personal morals. Most of us believe that genocide, murder, rape, etc are wrong, but those that do them do not feel it is- so it is right, in their minds. Even if we may not agree. For example, I do not hunt, and I don't think it is morally ethical to EVER kill a predator- yet people do it all the time and say that is it right. Another point mentioned (i'm not sure if it was covered yet, as I skipped a few pages) is that evolution is a change of alleles- this is true. BUT the example of corn morphs is an example of microevolution, not macroevolution, or the leading to new species. I do believe in evolution, and I can say it's fully believable through the work scientists have done on chickens. They have gone in and manually turned off and on alleles, producing chicks with claws and even teeth. It is not difficult for me to fathom that over billions of years, certain adaptations were passed along to many members of a species that helped them survive in their environments- leading to genetic diversity and new species.

When scientists can turn an allele or two on or off and create functioning mammary glands on a chicken (and chicks that use those mammary glands), then I might believe in the theory of evolution. Until then, I just cannot accept the fact that for millions or billions of years, the first creatures from some unknown origin (what do the evolution theorists say mammals evolved from again?) wasted a great deal of bodily energy on developing mammary glands that served no purpose (they were egg layers or gave live birth to babies that could survive on their own) until finally they were able to function, and then they had to create the urge to stick around and care for their young as well as produce offspring that didn't go off on their own but rather stayed with Mom to nurse off her. It actually sounds like the development of mammals per the theory of evolution would have been selected against, not for. Microevolution, yes, but the creation of all the diverse species in the world and the complexity and specificity of many of those species just can't be explained by the theory of evolution.
 
but I have never come across any member of another religion who has persecuted anyone for believing in God

Pick up Fox's Book of Martyrs...

Countless numbers of Christians have been persecuted and executed over the centuries. We have been made sport of in colosseums, being ripped apart by lions. We have been ripped apart by having our limbs tied to 4 horses which were ridden in opposite directions. We have been burned at the stake for not denouncing the name of Christ during the dark ages. We have been beheaded by kings. We have been flayed alive. We have been crucified. We have been executed in the tower of London. Thomas Baker was even killed, then eaten for his Christian faith in 1867 Fiji. We are murdered even today in China when our underground churches are discovered.

Rest assured, Christians are murdered more than enough simply for wearing the name of Jesus Christ in their lives. And Hollywood takes great pleasure in persecuting and ridiculing the Christian faith.

The thing is, it is an honor. My Bible tells me that those who are persecuted, who are martyred, for the sake of Christ will reap a great reward.

And please, please don't confuse this for committing suicide while killing people of another faith. That is not martyrdom. That is simply murder.
 
Pick up Fox's Book of Martyrs...

Countless numbers of Christians have been persecuted and executed over the centuries. We have been made sport of in colosseums, being ripped apart by lions. We have been ripped apart by having our limbs tied to 4 horses which were ridden in opposite directions. We have been burned at the stake for not denouncing the name of Christ during the dark ages. We have been beheaded by kings. We have been flayed alive. We have been crucified. We have been executed in the tower of London. Thomas Baker was even killed, then eaten for his Christian faith in 1867 Fiji. We are murdered even today in China when our underground churches are discovered.

Rest assured, Christians are murdered more than enough simply for wearing the name of Jesus Christ in their lives. And Hollywood takes great pleasure in persecuting and ridiculing the Christian faith.

The thing is, it is an honor. My Bible tells me that those who are persecuted, who are martyred, for the sake of Christ will reap a great reward.

And please, please don't confuse this for committing suicide while killing people of another faith. That is not martyrdom. That is simply murder.

OK, obviously I was wrong. I was more referring to nowadays, but I get your point just the same.

But would you care to address any other part of my post? More intolerance is stemmed from followers of God than any other religion I know of.
 
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