Salmon Ghost

This has actually helped me greatly reading your guys post. I have a "pink" snow. I dont know his genetics, he was a Petco find. He is a light pinky peachy snow. So if want to prove out his genetics it would be very confusing but this thread could help me!

dave partington said:

My turn.
I've decided to sit here on the naturalistic style poly-resin bench under the ficus tree on the side of the stage & observe how this one plays out.

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Hi Dave. May I join you on the bench?

I am enjoying learning new things tonight.

SODERBERGD said:

I jokingly tell folks that I pity the next generation of corn snake breeders, but it's NOT a joke. It's about to get very very confusing. We're on the cusp of having dozens (if not hundreds) of parallel phenotypes for non-allelic genotypes.

I guess it could be worse. At least we don't have to wait 340 day (gestation period for most horses) for breeding trials, AND we get more than one foal from our trials. That, and look how much longer some animals take to reach sexual maturity? I guess there's a bright side to any potential tragedy?

Don

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Something that keeps running through my mind is, how can you test a Hypo/Strawberry. I mean if you DO have a H/S and breed it to only one of the traits, you will still get Hypo/Straws in the clutch and seeing Hypo & Strawberry are hard to differ, how would you know :shrugs:

Then on top of that adding RedCoat................Huh?????

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I think that hypo A, Strawberry and Hypo/Strawberries can be differentiated between by examining the way the pigment cells appear and change thru a shed cycle under microscope

chris68 said:

I think that hypo A, Strawberry and Hypo/Strawberries can be differentiated between by examining the way the pigment cells appear and change thru a shed cycle under microscope

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LOL..............yeah I read that in Chuck's book. That sounds like a fun time :eek1:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

chris68 said:

I think that hypo A, Strawberry and Hypo/Strawberries can be differentiated between by examining the way the pigment cells appear and change thru a shed cycle under microscope

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Walter Smith said:

LOL..............yeah I read that in Chuck's book. That sounds like a fun time :eek1:

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

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Doesn't sound like alot of fun to me. I have a tough enough time getting one to stay still long enough for a photo. Lol

Tom Tuttle said:

Doesn't sound like alot of fun to me. I have a tough enough time getting one to stay still long enough for a photo. Lol

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AMEN !!

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

lol I know I know, but I'm open to ANY other ideas for sure

chris68 said:

I think that hypo A, Strawberry and Hypo/Strawberries can be differentiated between by examining the way the pigment cells appear and change thru a shed cycle under microscope

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This seems to be the only way to be 100% sure. The only way that Straw was determined to be different than Hypo and an allele is through this method.

When Walter said that Don S's Coral Snow proved to be homo for Hypo, I wondered how he knew. I assume he bred it to a Hypo, or recovered a Hypo from hets he created, but this would not prove that Don S's Coral Snow was a Hypo Snow, Hypo/Straw Snow or Straw Snow. The production of a Hypo only proves than it is one of the three possibilities.

I still like the title of this thread, even though nobody is calling them Salmon Ghost yet. Common Names help to shorten labeling morphs and just about ALL of them also let you know what the genetics are behind the morph, for example Snow (Amel Anery) and Blizzard (Amel Charcoal).

The use of Coral in this case has two meaning, which to me is definitely a cause of confusion. Coral is used for a Hypo Snow and for PINK coloration on a Snow or Ghost. Each line of pink Snows already has a lineage name, such as Bubble Gum, Neon, and Champagne.

If I were producing Ghost that I knew were homo for Strawberry, I would call them Salmon Ghost, and Snows that were homo for Strawberry Salmon Snows, which would tell the buyer, the genetics behind the morph. Obviously selective breeding has been done with the Salmon line to make them pinker than a standard Straw Anery. I think in this case, the selective breeding has brought together, Homo Straw Anery and Red Mask and Red Coat.

It seems the best of the best Salmons have all of these traits, which is why they are so pink and so desirable. I also think that Salmon is just as descriptive of the extreme pink on Salmon Snows and Salmon Ghost as coral is.

ecreipeoj said:

If I were producing Ghost that I knew were homo for Strawberry, I would call them Salmon Ghost, and Snows that were homo for Strawberry Salmon Snows, which would tell the buyer, the genetics behind the morph. Obviously selective breeding has been done with the Salmon line to make them pinker than a standard Straw Anery. I think in this case, the selective breeding has brought together, Homo Straw Anery and Red Mask and Red Coat.

It seems the best of the best Salmons have all of these traits, which is why they are so pink and so desirable. I also think that Salmon is just as descriptive of the extreme pink on Salmon Snows and Salmon Ghost as coral is.

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This is EXACTLY how I was looking at.

I figured that if the same traits that give the Jim(SWR)/Jeff(JMG) line of Ghosts their intense pink coloration as the Salmon Snows, why wouldn't their line of Ghosts also be labled Salmon.

I see alot of "Coral" Ghosts with alot less pink saturation and to see a Ghost with a little pink and a Ghost with a ton of pink BOTH being labled as "Coral" to me is confusing..............plus the term "Salmon" is pretty much linked visually (in Snows) to a VERY high saturation of pink color.

Salmon also seems to identify a particular line.......SWR & JMG.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

With the OP's permission, I have moved this thread to the more appropriate Genetics forum.

It would be nice to see or hear results from outcrossing neons, champagnes etc. especially in regards to the presense or not of any "red" factors. I'm still under the assumption that it would be present in some of the F1's if the "pink" parent was a carrier?

chris68 said:

It would be nice to see or hear results from outcrossing neons, champagnes etc. especially in regards to the presence or not of any "red" factors. I'm still under the assumption that it would be present in some of the F1's if the "pink" parent was a carrier?

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I purchased my original Champagne male ACR 3695http://herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=3695 to create projects with. If you go to this link and then scroll to the bottom, you will see a list of his offspring that are currently registered and be able to see their photos.

When I bred him to my Striped Amels, which I have always selected for red over the years, I produced 100% RedCoats. When I bred him to a RedCoat Amel Sunkissed ph Lava, I produced 100% RedCoats. When I bred him to a very pink Lavender Motley, I produced 100% RedCoats. In 2011, I bred him to a RedCoat Sunkissed Lava het Amel to add to the project from the Amel Sunkissed breeding and produced 100% RedCoats.

The only pink line Snow I bred him to was to a pink blotched Snow Motley which traces back to Snows from Lloyd Lemke. At the time, Lloyd had Bubble Gums and Pink and Green Snows. I saved back a few and ended up with two females. ACR 8476 is one of them. She is not as pink as either parent and seems to have picked up about 50% of the pink coloration from each parent. I believe this may have been a RedCoat X Red Mask breeding.

This breeding and other RedCoat x Non-RedCoat breedings is beginning to make me believe that RedCoat is co-dominant like Diffused, and perhaps even variable like Diffused. Being co-dominant, means that you can see the effects of the gene as het, like Diffused. A Het RedCoat has a slight coat of red color and homo RedCoat are the intense RedCoats I have posted photos of.

I believe Champagnes are homo RedCoat.

I don't know if this will help or cause more confusion.

Here is a definite strawberry. She looks lighter than she is with the natural lighting.




Another Strawberry




And here is one that I suspect to be Hypo A/Strawberry:




You can see how much 'lighter' he is.

The first girl and this last boy are siblings, he definitely 'has' strawberry.

Susan said:

I have a funny feeling that I'll just be calling mine "really pink ghosts/snows/whatever" as I don't think this will be figured out any time soon.

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Same over here. I'm gonna call my future coral ghost Tessera's 'really awesome pink SnakeAround ghost Tessera's If people are interested I can tell which breeder my breeding stock came from and what the breeder told about it;

This was my question to Jeff:

have you tested for strawberry in the coral ghost line? They look a lot like strawberry anery's people say. And the snow is just a snow genetically, right?

This was his answer:

"i dont think there is a strawberry gene its just a line bred trait that acts dominate. i took my extremes and bred them into the ghost line and in 2 generations i have coral extremes that look better than the coral ghost line. i just took a shortcut by using the extreme. this proves to me there is no strawberry gene."

On his site he says the foloowing about the extreme corns;

The extreme corn trait behaves like it is a dominant trait, but we believe it is a polygenetic trait. The extreme corn snake lines are the highest red corns we have ever worked with and so far we have not seen any other red corns that can compare to these.

SnakeAround said:

Same over here. I'm gonna call my future coral ghost Tessera's 'really awesome pink SnakeAround ghost Tessera's If people are interested I can tell which breeder my breeding stock came from and what the breeder told about it;

This was my question to Jeff:

have you tested for strawberry in the coral ghost line? They look a lot like strawberry anery's people say. And the snow is just a snow genetically, right?

This was his answer:

"i dont think there is a strawberry gene its just a line bred trait that acts dominate. i took my extremes and bred them into the ghost line and in 2 generations i have coral extremes that look better than the coral ghost line. i just took a shortcut by using the extreme. this proves to me there is no strawberry gene."

On his site he says the foloowing about the extreme corns;

The extreme corn trait behaves like it is a dominant trait, but we believe it is a polygenetic trait. The extreme corn snake lines are the highest red corns we have ever worked with and so far we have not seen any other red corns that can compare to these.

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With all due respect, Jeff is wrong about his line not being homo for Straw. The source of his line used Strawberry to create them.

Jeff's Extremes have always looked like RedCoats to me. Adding RedCoat to Straw Anery Amel, makes perfect since to create his Salmon Snows of today.

I concur with Joe there. Also, it's been independently observed under macro that strawberry and hypo are clearly different and that it's passed on recessively and allelic (to hypo A).

After thinking about this a bit, even though the trait has been proven as a recessive separate gene (strawberry specifically), the red can still be intensified via line breeding (just like most other genes/traits). This would apply to both strawberry AND redcoat. The fact that it IS a separate gene and that it can be line bred are ... apples and oranges.

whatever a salmon or a coral was composed of 10-15 years ago may not be the same concoction of genes today.

Walter Smith said:

This is EXACTLY how I was looking at.

I figured that if the same traits that give the Jim(SWR)/Jeff(JMG) line of Ghosts their intense pink coloration as the Salmon Snows, why wouldn't their line of Ghosts also be labled Salmon.

I see alot of "Coral" Ghosts with alot less pink saturation and to see a Ghost with a little pink and a Ghost with a ton of pink BOTH being labled as "Coral" to me is confusing..............plus the term "Salmon" is pretty much linked visually (in Snows) to a VERY high saturation of pink color.

Salmon also seems to identify a particular line.......SWR & JMG.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

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The Corals that Jeff produces are variable too, the females in particular develop much less pink.

One problem with a name change now is the fact that Jeff has already marketed the Coral Ghosts for about 6 years worldwide. I believe Jeff coined the Coral Ghost name, since then it has always been associated with his line of very pink ghosts. Thus far I haven't seen any other Coral Ghost advertised that were not decendents of the JMG/ SWR lines.

Out of respect for Jeff & the shafting he already took on the Granite/ Terrazzo name debacle. I plan on continuing to market the Ghosts I produce from the JMG/ SWR bloodlines as Coral Ghost.

SnakeAround said:

This was my question to Jeff:

have you tested for strawberry in the coral ghost line? They look a lot like strawberry anery's people say. And the snow is just a snow genetically, right?

This was his answer:

"i dont think there is a strawberry gene its just a line bred trait that acts dominate. i took my extremes and bred them into the ghost line and in 2 generations i have coral extremes that look better than the coral ghost line. i just took a shortcut by using the extreme. this proves to me there is no strawberry gene."

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I was told pretty much the same thing.

ecreipeoj said:

With all due respect, Jeff is wrong about his line not being homo for Straw. The source of his line used Strawberry to create them.

Jeff's Extremes have always looked like RedCoats to me. Adding RedCoat to Straw Anery Amel, makes perfect sense to create his Salmon Snows of today.

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I agree! Great looking Champagne BTW! Joe do you have any theories on the disparity of the amount of pink between the sexes?

Tara80 said:

I concur with Joe there. Also, it's been independently observed under macro that strawberry and hypo are clearly different and that it's passed on recessively and allelic (to hypo A).

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Great Strawberry examples. It appears that you can have both homo Hypo Straw and Hypo/ het Straw within the clutch. Were there any Straw/het Hypo ?