3 year old corn died and I feel terrible

Really sorry if this is the wrong place or not something I should post. I'm not really looking for answers specifically but am open to suggestions as to what might have happened to my snake. He passed away last night and I just feel terrible although I don't think I could have done anything.

Steve was 3 years old and seemingly very healthy. He always ate once a week on the same day (1 large mouse) and pooped almost exactly 72 hours later, very regular guy. In general he was pretty active at night. He was in a 4 foot viv with aspen bedding and we cleaned him out regularly- spot checks every day and we would change out all the aspen and wipe the heat mat every 6-8 weeks. He always had enough water. The warm end of the viv was usually 26 degrees c and the cool end around 22-23c. He spent most of his time in his hide in the cool end. He used to shed very regularly. The only unusual thing we had was earlier this year he stopped eating for about 5 weeks but was very active, and after reading online we presumed it was due to mating season. He resumed eating, shedding and pooping after this.

More recently he missed two feeds. Unfortunately as I am away at university/college my mum looks after him and as she is not a huge fan of reptiles she might not have picked up any signs that I would have done. He had also not shed in about 10 weeks. As sometimes he has missed feeds in the past and he was overdue a shed we presumed he didn't eat because of this.

Yesterday morning (Sunday) around 10am he was awake and outside of his hut which I thought was strange but thought he might be trying to shed. A little while later his head and neck skin had shed but he wasn't really attempting to get rid of the rest- usually he sheds in one go and it comes off in one piece. I thought it might be because he was lethargic and not the right time of day for him to shed. I stroked him which usually makes him jump a little bit but he barely responded- I picked him up and he poked his tongue out a bit and made a breathing noise but wasn't as responsive as usual so I put him back to avoid touching him and causing pain. Later in the afternoon around 5pm he was moving around his viv a lot more and opening his mouth- I thought he was now trying to get rid of the skin. I left him to it and came back around 8/9pm. He still had not finished shedding but was now getting very agitated and moving his body in very unusual ways. I picked him up and his head and neck seemed floppy but his lower body was making all sort of movements. I panicked as he twisted and contorted into unusual shapes and he started to open his mouth a lot and flop down on his side and with his head upside down, at one point his head flopped into the water bowl. I tried to call a vet but at 9:30pm on a Sunday night I couldn't get hold of anyone quick enough. Within 10 minutes of this violent wriggling and throwing his head around he went very limp with very few movements. I took him to a warm bath to see if that helped and let his head rest on his body so it was out of the water. There was no response and when I picked him up he was completely floppy. I touched his body all over including his face and no response at all. He had absolutely no muscle tone, no tongue or mouth movement, no more breathing sound.

At that point I knew he was probably dead but didn't want to risk 'disposing' of him in case. Thought he might be hibernating or brumating at one point (ridiculous panic thought i know) but as far as I am aware they don't have 'seizure'-like movements when they are going to brumate or hibernate (and they don't do this anyway unless owners are trying to breed, from what I have read?). I put him in a cardboard box lid on a towel on his heat mat in the viv. I took a picture of him and left him for an hour. His body had not moved at all and was completely limp when I lifted him again. I left him overnight just in case. In the morning (about 10 hours after he went limp) his body was quite rigid and I guess this is rigor mortis. We put him in towels in a cardboard box and disposed of him (I don't have anywhere or any tools to bury him, which I also feel terrible about).

I feel terrible for not doing something sooner like calling a vet during the day when he wasn't as responsive as usual. But I presumed that because he was moving a fair bit he must be okay, and by the time i really knew something was wrong it was just too late and I wouldn't have been able to drive to a vet in time. I thought the behaviour might have just been because of his overdue shed, perhaps it was very uncomfortable for him. I just have no idea what could have happened and will always be a mystery. I checked the bit of skin he had shed and it was all intact so I don't think he could have 'choked' on it (if that's even possible). If I had other reptiles i would definitely consider a PM to find a cause.

Anyone else had similar death experiences (with the seizure-like behaviour, mouth open, star-gazing type behaviour) before death? Any deaths during shedding?

For future reference, corn snakes do better with a warm end temp of around 83 to 88 degrees F (Which translates to about 29 or 30 C) and the Cool end temp you had was ok, but I like it a tad bit warmer (74 F or 23.5 C).

You stated he made a breathing noise when you poked him. Perhaps he had a "Cold" or Respiratory Infection as people around here call it, and that could have been due to the cooler than normal temps inside the cage. I rarely hear any "breathing noise" from my snake.

It's imposible for anyone here on an Internet Message Forum to say for sure. The snake could have had a condition unknown to anyone. It's hard to say. But the key to "getting off to a good start" is to research everything ahead of time and be prepared. To always have fresh clean water, to always have a clean cage, and to always have proper temperatures. Most of the time when a snake dies with no apparent reason, it's due to unclean conditions or improper temps or improper feeding.

Hi Karl_Mcknight

Yes I agree it could have been perhaps a bit warmer. But as he never spent any time in the warm end of his viv (unless he was just having a quick run around) I presumed that the cool end was more comfortable for him. He had a hide at both ends and plenty of aspen to bury in so I feel like he had a fair bit of 'choice' as to where to go and thought if he needed to be warmer he'd go to the heat mat.

I think the breathing noise was more of a hiss- not aggressive but just a slight hiss. He would do it all the time when he was healthy and when I picked him up etc. He would poke out his tongue at the same time. My ex-partner who gave me him as a gift has kept many snakes before and never expressed any concern and I guess I relied a lot on his knowledge.

His cage was always clean and he was very regular with eating, pooping and shedding so I guess the only thing could have been the temperature. But as I said, he was always at the cool end so I presumed this was okay for him Of course, can't know anything about other conditions he might have had... poor Steve

Originally Posted by lucyjane1611

Hi Karl_Mcknight

1). Yes I agree it could have been perhaps a bit warmer. But as he never spent any time in the warm end of his viv (unless he was just having a quick run around) I presumed that the cool end was more comfortable for him. 2). He had a hide at both ends and plenty of aspen to bury in so I feel like he had a fair bit of 'choice' as to where to go and thought if he needed to be warmer he'd go to the heat mat.

3). I think the breathing noise was more of a hiss- not aggressive but just a slight hiss. He would do it all the time when he was healthy and when I picked him up etc. He would poke out his tongue at the same time. My ex-partner who gave me him as a gift has kept many snakes before and never expressed any concern and I guess I relied a lot on his knowledge.

His cage was always clean and he was very regular with eating, pooping and shedding so I guess the only thing could have been the temperature. But as I said, he was always at the cool end so I presumed this was okay for him Of course, can't know anything about other conditions he might have had... poor Steve

1). You should have still provided the correct temps. He might have used the warm side more often if it was warm enough. We'll never know now will we?
2). Choice is nice, but when your choice is "Colder and Colder" then choice does not really matter.
3). I'll defer to those people who have corn snakes that "Hiss all the time." Mine doesn't. Diagnosing a snake with an illness is not easy. They can't tell you what is wrong. But "Wheezing, Coughing, and Sneezing" are signs of illness. If the snake was "Hissy" all the time, was it really a hiss or was it a wheeze? I'm not saying "either / or" but I've encountered more people that "Have no clue how to take care of a snake" than I have people that "Do everything correctly."

Just sayin'

The advice I was given from both friends and reptile shops was that 26c was fine. During the winter when the heating in the house is on it would quickly go up to 27/28 and if the warm end was less than 26 we would put a heater on next to the vivarium.

Again, the advice I got was that the hissing sound when he poked his tongue was entirely normal. If reptile shop keepers aren't experts with reptiles then I don't really know what other knowledge I should be able to rely on, especially given that many other people on the internet report the same noise, combined with the fact it was something he had done for as long as I had him (3 years).

It sounds to me like either a respiratory infection that came on quickly, and they can, or just one of those things. It could have been just about anything and there well may have been nothing you could have done even if you had been able to get him to a vet.

I'm so sorry for your loss. One thing around here, we know he wasn't "just a snake". Sending love and support in your grief. RIP Steve.

Thanks DollysMom for your kind words. He was always such a placid, chilled out kind of guy. I just hate to think that he was in pain.

Originally Posted by lucyjane1611

Thanks DollysMom for your kind words. He was always such a placid, chilled out kind of guy. I just hate to think that he was in pain.

I know. I've lost pets. Pet grief is its own special kind of mourning. Whatever happened, try to think of him slithering over the Rainbow Bridge to a forest full of mice to eat and hiding places to curl up in. Take some small comfort in knowing that any pain he might have had is over.

I would suggest you read through the section of this forum called "Husbandry and Basic Care." I know you probably think I'm being mean and you don't want to listen to me.

That section will explain what I've been trying to tell you.

I know you were "advised" by other people, but this is a "Corn Snake Forum." Believe it or not, but there are a few folks here that know how to take care of corn snakes. And it's also possible that the "People that advised you might have been wrong."

Most of the folks here "Have Heated Cages." All the time. Even in the Summer. You have stated you did not.

Reptiles need "Heat." Before you buy another snake, please do a little research first.

"Most of the folks here "Have Heated Cages." All the time. Even in the Summer. You have stated you did not."

Where did I state that?

He had a heat mat that was on all the time (every day of the year regardless of season), a heat lamp that came on during the day from 9am-9pm (every day of the year, regardless of season). On days where the air in the house was cooler (i.e. autumn and winter), we would put on an extra heater outside of the vivarium in the room to maintain warmer air. The cool end never went below 22c and the warm end never below 26.