...sigh! Fat Boy? or Gravid Gal?

"Mr/Ms" Whytsnake update:

Well now... should be about any minute now... I can NOT believe how TINY her neck & head look compared to the rest of her TONAGE! lol But she retreated to her nesting box early yesterday and has not come out once since... She has refused food and you can actually SEE her body contracting in like waces~!~~ THIS SURELY MUST BE IT RIGHT?!?!?! (before I loose my mind AND drive the hubby NUTS!) LOL

I CAN HARDLY STAND IT!!! I have been laid up on the couch due to the bad weather, so I have had a birds eye view of her in her box... I think the combo of wine & excitment is lowering my pain!! WOOHOO ANOTHER PLUS! hehehehe

So... hopefully I will be counting eggs by morning! PLLLEEEAASSSSEEE!!!lol

I've been out of action too.... wondering if you've woken to eggs though?

Well Howdy Di!
Gee... I missed you! And everyone else here some too! LOL Wonder where my "Mentor" is...
Anyways... it has now been over 3 days she has been in her laying box... Her spine has raised and I swear, if she gets even 1 millmeter fatter, she's gonna EXPLODE! lol Hubby keeps shaking his head and chuckling at me, cuz I keep checking on her and saying.."Poor Girl! I know you gotz to be so uncomfortable" and then I slowly message her head and TINY little neck... She seems to really love it, though hubby thinks Im nuts~! heheh What else is new right?! LOL

...........................sigh! Still waiting for the eggs though. ALthough my attention was captivated for a couple of days watching our Upper Keys mating! (Or as I so gently put it earlier...SCHMUCKIN!) Over a three day period they got "stuck together" no less than twice a day! Now poor "OB1" our only male... Is alone in a viv, not resting as I thought he would though! LOL He is RAREN TO GO AGAIN! lol

.........................sigh! Still waiting for the eggs though....

Loves and Snake Coilin Hugs Gal!
~Mary Ann

NOTE TO MY MENTOR: DALE "JAZZGEEK"!
How are things going with you & yours? And by the way... do you play? I mean are you a musician? Just wondering...

Hugs and Snake Coilin hugs to you too Buddy!

~Mary Ann

Wooooo F'nnn Hoooooo And Howdy Hanah High!!!

Well Di M'Dear... You were absolutely right in one of your earlier comments... Our ONE Male, the Motley Keys Boy Known as "OB" has just "STUCK IT" (literally) to our third and last adult female... NOT ONLY has he only had about 24 hour rest since SEVERAL copulations with Lil' Momma over a three day period... He NAILED "Katchiana" with in less than 15 minutes of putting them in the same viv!!!
The Hubs gets up around 5 am to get ready for work, so we decided to go ahead and trade "OB" out of the "Single" viv and put Lil'Momma in there now that she, I AM SURE is plenty DONE! And just "see" if He could or would have any interest in our poor nuerotic Motley Stripe 6 yr old female... (we did not have high hopes, as she has not, in her 6 yrs of life, 'proven' to be a very good breeder/producer... according to the "Since Birth" records that came with her) LMAO!!! Well... that is officially the SECOND TIME that OB has "SHOWED US!" lol
First we thought Whytsnake (for 4 yrs) was a MALE.... Boy Did our "OB" prove us WRONG on that one in short order!! And NOW... It would appear that the "6 yr old Gal we thought would prolly make a better pet to someone than a breeder... IS SHCMUCKIN HER BRAINS OUT WITH OB!!! Yep.... He is NOT one to be OUT DONE nor Told what's what! LMAO!
So see? You sent the GOOD VIBES this way when you said "He was a Lucky Guy having three pretty Ladies!" And WOOOO HOOOOO ! ! ! ! Eggs & pippies and eggs and pippies and eggs and pippies OH MY OH MY!!!

(.....wow! I do believe that this post definetly reveals my total and unabashed giddiness! ...well either that, or I am living proof that breeding snakes can revert a grown adult back into a WIDE EYED CHILD that can NOT wipe the silly grin off their face!!!)

Snake Coilin' Hugs All Around!!!
~Mary Ann

Congrats on the hook ups! But to increase the fertility of that male you should really give him a 2-3 day rest with no females. You can put him with her once every couple days then after hookup separate them and repeat in a couple days. This gives the female time to relax from being chased and the male time to rebuild the "swimmers". LOL Typically 2-3 hookups is all that's needed for success. Good luck and I'll look forward to your eggs!!

eggs....eggs... I want to see eggs!

I'm on tenderhooks so can only imagine how you're goin.

How adorable that she lets you gently massage her head and neck. After all.... for four years you've been calling her a him.... hahahaha.... and we mere mortal women complain of being misunderstood. Well - this is getting very exciting.

Believe me life is all too much doom and gloom not to appreciate some good old down to earth giddiness. Giddy-up I say.

Thankx Beckers... The Gals and I are greatful for that piece of advice.. LOL But I gotta tell ya... Just keeping OB alone for 24 hours after 3 days with Lil Momma, WAS A NIGHTMARE! I don't think the Little sucker slept one minute! But he TORE UP the VIV,,, rearrainged EVERYTHING, managed somehow to dump the water... BENT the dang screen... and all of this was just because although Lil Momma was DONE and needed a rest... OB WAS NOT ! ! ! lmao

That's why we went ahead and put him in with the last female to be "woed". And I am NOT kidding... about 13 minutes after he joined Kat in the BIG viv... THEY WERE HOOKED!!!! I could NOT believe it! At least Lil Momma put up a bit of a chase and fight... LOL Katchy was obviously JUST as ready as OB thought he STILL WAS! LOL Soooo... without further a'due.... Some PICS!

1st up is our POOR MISERABLE, UNGODLY HUGE, MIS-SHAPENED, FULL WITH WHO KNOWS HOW MANY EGGS!!! She has not gotten out of her laying box now going on 4 days... Our "OB 1's" First 2009 SURPRISE Hook-up.



And now... THE SHCMUCKERS!! LOL
Our Studly, Upper Gigalo, Man of the HOUR for all three Girls...
"OB-1" (Oh-Be One) gets his long time mate... "Lil Momma" and she made him WORK for it everytime!!



This is us, TRYING to get OB to rest up for his next Woman... NOT!! lmao



That just made him want it all the more... This one was the 13 minutes in... AND HE WAS IN! LOL With Katchiana, the Motley Stripe... And in the last 4 hours... He has "stuck it to her" 2 more times!!!! This Guy Is A Flippen MACHINE! (although he didn't act like this with either of the others. WE WOULD HAVE NOTICED! LOL






.....................so cool!!! And it has been a great distraction while waiting for Whytsnake to pop those eggs out!!! And now... it appears... we will have a total of three clutches all together this season!!! Not bad for a 1st timer! WooHoo.... (if I wasn't such a nervous wreck..that is! LOL)

dizeedoo said:

eggs....eggs... I want to see eggs!

I'm on tenderhooks so can only imagine how you're goin.

Believe me life is all too much doom and gloom not to appreciate some good old down to earth giddiness. Giddy-up I say.

Click to expand...

HAVE I TOLD YA HOW MUCH I LUVS YA TODAY WOMAN!?!?! You just so rock!

"Giddy-in Up Over Here!" LOL Yeeeeeeeee... HAAAAWWWWWwwwww!!

Congratulations on all those potential clutches. I hope by the time you read this that Whytsnake has laid hers, so you can quit anxiously awaiting that and anxiously await her pippies instead!

As for Becky's advice on improving your (lucky) male's fertility rate, you really ought to persist in that. Lots of frequent mating often means low sperm count, and lots of infertile eggs down the road. Consider making him take a break from copulating, even if he won't rest. That's kind of normal for a breeding male. You'll be more likely to get more babies if he's forced to wait a bit between service dates.

Good luck, in any case.

Thank You Both.... I just stopped OB from going for his 4th Cop since 5:45 this am!!! HOLY CRAP!! LOL Ya know, when he "hooked up" with Lil'Momma... I do not recall even ONCE seeing that "tell tale" puddle of goo! And yet... everytime he has finally pulled out of Katchy this morning..."PLOP" out comes about a half teaspoon of the gooey stuff! I wonder why we never saw it before with neither the "SNEAKY" whytsnake cop back in Feb... Nor with Lil M for the last 5 days!!!

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.... Oh yeah.. And
Ewwwwww!!! and YUCK!!! lmao!!
Sooo... it begs to be asked... which is more towards normal? One male copping with 2 females at different times and NEVER leaving any visable evidence and you really have to wait and wait for him to finally GET HOOKED up and it is only wittnessed like once or twice through an entire night...
Then... suddenly... After being seperated from his "3 yr proven female mate" for less than 36 hours... He goes all "SUPER STUD" for a 6 yr old female that he has never bred with before, stuck together just 13 minutes after meeting... and attempts to copulate every 2 to 3 hours~! (The oppisite of how he and Lil Momma breed) and yet leave a fair amount of his "deposit" on the tank floor? BOTH TIMES! I don't know... this just seems very strange to me... But then... ya all know I AM a 1st timer at this whole breeding thing, aka: a basic Herp idiot who has gone crosseyed reading and researching... and as you know... ALL THOSE HOURS OF READING AND TRYING TO LEARN... and it All comes down to this.....

EVERY SNAKE IS DIFFERENT AND THERE IS NO "SET" ANYTHING
THAT WORKS EVERY TIME FOR EVERY SNAKE!!!

Thats why this is the best place... I am gaurenteed to get at least three different answers to every question I ask... So I can try each one to see what works! LOL

Thankx as always in advance...
~"Worried & Wondering, Whytsnake Mother Mary"
ANYBODY????

That female is huge! I can bet she will lay 28 eggs, give or take 2.

I've had some males leave 'evidence' and others that don't. Don't worry too much about that. Sounds kind of gross but I have had some males leave stuff behind and then one or both snakes slide through it. So maybe you missed some the first time around cause they did this?? There is a possibility he didn't leave any thing the next couple times. I like to put my pairings in 23 quart bins with nothing in the bottom. Easier to see evidence of copulation. It also makes it easy to watch them and if the females not ready, she's still running 15 minutes later, I separate them. Once they have finished the breeding session, I separate them then put them back together a couple days later.

Oh MAN! Beckers... You really can not FULLY understand just how BIG she is until your in person! LOL But if peeps just take a GOOD look at her top third... Ya know head and 1st part of the neck.... And compare THAT to her other 2/3.... ESPECIALLY the middle to the tail! I just KNOW our scales won't get here untill she lays dangit! I REALLY want to know how much she is tipping the scales at RIGHT NOW!
Her spine has been raised now the entire length of her body, for about three days... She has not left her box now for going on 5 days, other than when we had to move her to adjust the laying box. And this morning I had to find the thermometer under her substrate and when I "GENTLY" lifted her tail section... My hand suddenly became wet as if she had peed on me! LOL I happen to know that snakes DO NOT pee clear liquid, it was just like water!! I know this is a dumb question... But are the females eggs in a sack of water sorta like a Uterous? Cuz I can not for the life of me... figure out what else it could have been... It also had NO SCENT! BIG HINT lol

And OB is back in the "Single" Viv.... and MAN OH MAN... HE is not happy, Katchy is back to going bonkers too! Through trial and error (namely a skinned up nose) we found out that "Katchy" so prefers the company of another snake... Male or female... that when she is alone... She starts rubbing her nose on EVERYTHING in the viv and the viv itself, and it doesn't stop there... She then will start BANGING her head against the top screen and glass sides... that goes on until either I freak out and take her out or until she gets bored of that and begins her "COBRA" impersonation!!
I AM NOT LYING!!! She will stand real tall, balance herself, take aim... wiggle back and forth once or twice.. THEN BAM!!! She strikes the damn glass!!! Now we have checked and rechecked... there is NO Glare, there is NO inside reflection, and the ONLY THING THAT STOPS HER... Is to either hold her (which since she went into season, isn't working at the moment ) or put another adult snake with her!

And I know I know... Ya all don't like that "Co-Habitation" stuff.... But I tell you what...If it was the only thing you could do to keep your gorgeous girls JAW IN JOINT! (ok, so far she has only rubbed her nose nearly raw, but as hard as she hits that glass... She is GOING to break her jaw or worse!

And I am sorry but I don'tlike that keeping adult snakes in shoeboxes stuff, so we have three VERY LARGE VIVS, every snake has it's choice of at least 2 hides & some sort of Climbing/perching branch. (Found out the Keys really seem to prefer perching in the top of a branch more often than going in there hide...So now ALL the Vivs have branches. And the little female keys also seems to prefer company... Given the choice of her own hide or the one that has Katchy in it... She goes to Katchy every time... And they are both very small and wrap up equally... I watched for "domenating actions"... NOTTA!
At Feeding time, out of the two snakes living together, we rotate which snake eats in a bru box... and they do not join each other again until at least one hour after eating... They all get fed 1 "F/T" Lrg Mouse every week to 10 days.
And this system has been working GREAT for over a month now... Katchy's nose is healing...but it is going to have a scar for a lot of sheds if not forever.
And before you say it.... YES! I will be seperating the girls when they start to show... I know they can get grumpy when gravid.... And I do not want either of them stressed during caring... Sean has already picked out another medium tank 25 gal. that we are picking up next week. And that will give us 4 larger Tanks for the 4 adults.... I am just really HOPING that being "egged up" will be enough to keep Katchy from going back to her physcotic neurosis or what ever you call it... I am SO VERY WORRIED she will do herself SERIOUS damage if left alone to long! ...sigh! Well will cross that TROUBLED WATER when we get to that BRIDGE! LOL

....sorry about the babbling... it is part excitment... part nervousness....partly from the fact that after getting over a foot of snow in less than 12 hours..... THE SUN IS SHINING AND IT IS A BLUE BIRD DAY IN TAHOE!!! Oh yeah... and since the SUN is out... My pain is way back down to tolerable!!! WooHoo!!! NOW IF WHYTSNAKE WOULD JUST HONOR ME WITH AN EGG OR TWO!!! lol THIS DAY WOULD BE PERFECT!!!!

~Mary Ann

sierraherps said:

My hand suddenly became wet as if she had peed on me! LOL I happen to know that snakes DO NOT pee clear liquid, it was just like water!! I know this is a dumb question... But are the females eggs in a sack of water sorta like a Uterous? Cuz I can not for the life of me... figure out what else it could have been... It also had NO SCENT! BIG HINT lol

Click to expand...

No, they don't have water sacs. Not exactly sure what that would have been other than just clear poo. Some times it wont really smell. When did she last shed?

And I am sorry but I don'tlike that keeping adult snakes in shoeboxes stuff, so we have three VERY LARGE VIVS...

Click to expand...

I meant you could use the totes to make it easier to monitor breeding. If I could have vivs for ALL of my snakes I would. But I am a full time breeder with over 100 snakes and 5 kids in my house. There is no way I could have that many glass tanks. Can't even imagine how much space that would take up not to mention all the trouble of cleaning them. Dang..just the though of cost alone is shocking! LOL

bekers71 said:

I meant you could use the totes to make it easier to monitor breeding. If I could have vivs for ALL of my snakes I would. But I am a full time breeder with over 100 snakes and 5 kids in my house. There is no way I could have that many glass tanks. Can't even imagine how much space that would take up not to mention all the trouble of cleaning them. Dang..just the though of cost alone is shocking! LOL

Click to expand...

Oh Beckers I do hope you didn't take offense to what I said, I truly didn't mean any! It is very understandable that if you are going to make a business out of it... 25 to 60 gal tanks would really defeat the purpose... And when I say my preference is "Not keep them in shoebox tubs" I really mean "MY PREFERENCE".. That is the primary reason we missed out on a KILLER deal a month ago... 4 2 to 3 yr old Corns... 2 of them in the morph I REALLY WANT, and we could have had them ALL for under 200.00 NO SHIPPING EITHER! Man, what a heart breaker... I mean we had money to either buy the snakes... or the tanks... not enough for both. Sooo... we wait!
My hubby went out of a MAJOR HERP biz over 15 yrs ago because of the beliefs he came to have while raising, breeding, selling and trading ALL KINDS of Snakes including Kings, COrns, Boa's, (rosey and Columbian)rattlers, and a few different species of Python, including a couple "VERY WILD" Retics, one of which tried to eat him one morning...( he admits fully it was his own fault, he was in a hurry and reached in the Viv to fast & to soon after meal time.
It was his then, 12 yr old son who saved the day... Quicker than the shock of the situation could clear from Seans head... he hears..."Dad... I'll start running water in the tub... Hurry Up Come On!" By then his entire hand was quickly dissappearing!
So, I truly do fully understand the "Biz" side and even the "Morph" race reasons behind what I call warehousing Cornsnakes. And as Sean says, "Most of the Morphs would never survive in the wild..." This makes sense to me...
Like our Snow, which is a natural genetic morph, he would have been picked off WAY before he EVER reached 3 months old IF he made it THAT far!
Even IF all this morphing happened naturaly all on it's own it would take thousands of years to match the numbers and variations that hobbiests have created in just a few decades, (which is an amazing feat all in itself) But, even if it did happen, natural evolution would never turn the Cornsnakes into the Worlds "NEON LUNCH SIGNS" lol So their would NEVER be the BEAUTIFUL Colors and patterns they have now!

I don't plan of going to far above 10 full time live-in snakes. (Not counting babies of course, at least at first, we plan on selling any that are not JUST SPECTACULAR!) I pride myself on never having more creatures in my home than I have time to love and attend to. I do however, plan on figuring out a way to 'buy/trade/ or sire my way into some kind of morph project within 2 yrs... But we shall see huh! LOL

Thank You for taking so much time to help me and PLEASE know that I may be blunt and even brash... But it is most always meant in humor or just stating my opinions or feelings, but I am the kind of person that has to be really REALLY pushed before I would EVER purposely go out to offend anyone!
I just want EVERYONE here knows that I am just not the confrontational type!
...... Just so Ya All know anyways!

........................................sigh! STILL NO EGGS!!

~Mary Ann

Oh I didn't take any offense to it at all. Didn't mean for it to sound like I did. Sorry. I was serious in saying I wish all of mine could be in tanks. It would be nice. Just imagine a house big enough that you could line the walls with 100 nicely decorated tanks.

Go give her a squeeze and see if the eggs come out. LOL

she looks gravid to me

Appriciate your opinion and for taking time to give it!! Thank You!!! And I believe it is COMPLETELY UNANIMUS! <---- sorry bout that... I aint so gud of a speeler! hehehe

LOL... Yeah Chris,,, It was touch and go there for awhile, ya know... For over 4 yrs we went with what we had been told, that "HE was a MALE". Then last year about my B-day time (March) Sean actualy made the comment... "If I didn't know better, I would
think this is a female... cuz he just has that "swollen ovulation" look females get this time of year." But we quickly wrote it off to how well he had been eating lately... At that time he was "KILLING & EATING" live Rats with no problem, one or two every 2 weeks to a month... Then this year comes and BUY 3 OTHER MATURE SNAKES, next thing ya know...

So... I pretty well had my mind made up completely by Page 2 of this thread that:
#1. Not only was our beloved pet "Whytsnake" NOT a male, but a female.... LOL
#2 "SHE" was surprisingly obviously gravid! (The gravid thing was kinda what gave
away The Snakes True Sex!) lmao We unknowingly, thinking "She" was a "HE" kept him with the new male we had just bought for about 3 weeks..(Late Jan to mid Feb)

The new snakes had come to us straight out of Brumation. We were giving them time to get fed and shed before time to be bred... So, of course THAT obviously was when they musta got sneaky & did the deed. We are BOTH still amazed how we had NO CLUE, never heard a sound nor saw anything suspicious!!
With both of the other females over the last week or two, you can NOT miss when they start doing the dance! (also note that although Whytsnake had been in our bedroom that was slightly cooler than the living room all winter... She had not really brumated...

So I think it was by half way down Page 3,,,, Hubby and I realized "Oh Crap!" that means we have ONE mature male & THREE mature females!!! But hey... What kinda guy WOULDN'T enjoy that!! LOL And true 'Dat!! But MAN is he FREAKING OUT being alone right now for a few days to let him recover some sperm count!! LOL And since Katchy is so nuerotic when she is alone... We have her and the NEWLY post copulated Lil Momma together... LOL And THEY have been asleep now for two straight days! LOL

Hey btw... Did I mention how F'n WONDERMUSS all this Mothering Cornsnakes REALLY IS!!! Impatiently waiting and all!! I TRULY LOVE WHAT I AM DOING!!! I just hope all our babies are as happy as we are! (Wellexcept for Pissed off OB, who "WANTS TO GO BACK TO ONE OF HIS WOMEN!!! N O W ! ! ! ) lmao But the rest are Way cool!

LOL
~Mary ANN

well.... sigh! I guess even though I have seen the phrase... It never dawned on me, for what ever reason... That I would have that to watch for before Whytsnake lays... As of yesterday, she is now in what I think must be:
Pre-Lay Shed mode... She is deff in the blue.. Her eyes are VERY opal right now...

So does this mean she wan't lay for sure until After She sheds? Cuz I have seen both phrases:

Pre Lay Shed & Post Lay Shed... So now I am confused... Do they generally do one or the other? Or both? I mean it just seems weird that she would shed NOW at the size she is... What happens when she is emaciated from laying? LOL Sagging Skin?? LOL PLEASE HELP ONCE AGAIN!

Typically a female will shed approximately 2 weeks before laying the eggs. This does not always happen this way. Some girls just dont reed the book and will lay the day they shed, day after or any time after they shed. There is an after lay shed too called the post shed, that occurs around 2 weeks AFTER laying the eggs. If your girl is blue she will lay any time from now.

She wont have sagging skin. LOL But she will be pretty thin. Offer her a very small meal after she has laid all the eggs. She may or may not take it. Dont worry if she don't. Best thing to do when she's done is just make sure she has fresh water and keep offering little meals. But try to just leave her alone so she can rest and recouperate.

What was the last day you actually witnessed her mating? I'm sure you have it in this thread some where, but I'm too tired to go back and read it all. LOL