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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Calling the TESSERA EXPERTS!
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #31
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Tuttle View Post
Yeah I'm confused too. If they derived from striped cali kings as some folks theorise, then wouldn't they ALL be het stripe??
Tom's breeding supports my Theory.

The Tessera he used MUST be a Motley/Striped. When he bred it to a Striped/Striped, he produced both Striped and Motleys in the clutch, but why?

Let me review the Motley locus. Striped is an allele at the Motley locus. It is located at the same "location". It is impossible to get a "Striped Motley" Tessera. You can not get a Corn that is homo for Motley AND Striped because they are alleles. Motley is DOMINANT over Striped, when the geno is Motley/Striped.

It is a Common Name mistake. Common names and genetic names can be different. A Motley is Motley/Motley at the Motley locus. A Striped is Striped/Striped at the Motley locus. A Motley/Striped is HET Motley and Striped at the Motley locus.

When we breed a Motley x Striped, the offspring are Motley/Stripes, BUT the key, is Motley is DOMINANT over Striped, so 100% Motley phenos are produced. They are Motley/Striped, but look exactly like Motleys. The recessive Striped gene has absolutely NO effect on the pattern. A Hurricane Motley and/or a Pin-Striped Motley can both be Motley/Striped.

I argued against using "Pin-Striped" as a name for one of many patterns on Motleys because to this exact possible confusion. The Pin-Striped Motley pattern is not caused by the Striped Gene.

Tom's Tessera is a Motley/Striped Tessera genetically. When he bred it to a Striped/Striped, he produced more Motley/Striped Tesseras exactly like the parents pheno, but also produced Striped/Striped Tessera, which do not look like the parent. I believe the Striped Tessera pheno resembles a Vanishing Striped, so they are difficult to tell apart, no different than Stripes and Striped Bloodreds are.



In my opinion, Tesseras dominant pattern trait does come from Striped California King Snakes. This pattern is not from our Striped Gene in Corns. It is a dominant gene, and our Striped gene is recessive. Tessera is a Common Name and Genetic Name, that is the same.

The pheno of Tesseras is Tessara, the gene of Tessera, in my opinion is the same as the Striped gene in California Kings.

Homo Motley Gene: Motley/Motley (recessive to Normal)
Homo Striped Gene: Striped/Striped (recessive to Normal)
Het Motley/Striped (Motley is dominant, so 100% Motley pheno, with NO effects from the recessive Striped gene)

The original Tesseras were het Tessera: Tessera/Normal (Dominant to Normal)

Tessera/Tessera (Some have been produced and seems to be the same phenol as Het Tessera, which confirms Tessera is a dominant gene.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:24 AM   #32
Tom Tuttle
Striped Tess Anery/ het dilute breeding:

This time to a Dilute motley. Murphy smiled at this one 14 eggs only 2 males.




 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:27 AM   #33
Tom Tuttle
PART II

The rest of the clutch:

 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #34
Tom Tuttle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj View Post
Tom's breeding supports my Theory.

The Tessera he used MUST be a Motley/Striped. When he bred it to a Striped/Striped, he produced both Striped and Motleys in the clutch, but why?

Tom's Tessera is a Motley/Striped Tessera genetically. When he bred it to a Striped/Striped, he produced more Motley/Striped Tesseras exactly like the parents pheno, but also produced Striped/Striped Tessera, which do not look like the parent. I believe the Striped Tessera pheno resembles a Vanishing Striped, so they are difficult to tell apart, no different than Stripes and Striped Bloodreds are.


Glad my data has some use. But I think you got it backwards. I bred the homo stripe tessera to a striped motley amel. Where did you see a homo stripe female in my posts?shrugs:
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:41 AM   #35
fyrefocks
Tom, in the pictured referenced by this quote-

"Here are my results from homo Striped Tess/ het Caramel x Striped motley amel/ caramel breeding this year. I refer to the dam as striped motley as she is visually stripe. 10 eggs total 9 went full term."

What I see is an amel stripe animal. The dorsal stripe is too wide to be a motley, pheno or genotypically speaking.

And since you did produce motley babies and stripe babies, one of the parents has to be a tundlefart. Since the amel looks stripe, it has to be the tessera that is a trundle.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:56 AM   #36
Tom Tuttle
2012 results

This is from Peppermint x Tessera / het stripe. Pretty obvious the Peppermint is at the VERY least het motley!





 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:03 PM   #37
Tom Tuttle
PART II

They wouldn't all fit.

This one along with several others went to live with Don. I hope Don doesn't mind me posting a more recent photo that He provided me with. IMHO the finest example I've seen.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:04 PM   #38
Tom Tuttle
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyrefocks View Post
Tom, in the pictured referenced by this quote-

"Here are my results from homo Striped Tess/ het Caramel x Striped motley amel/ caramel breeding this year. I refer to the dam as striped motley as she is visually stripe. 10 eggs total 9 went full term."

What I see is an amel stripe animal. The dorsal stripe is too wide to be a motley, pheno or genotypically speaking.

And since you did produce motley babies and stripe babies, one of the parents has to be a tundlefart. Since the amel looks stripe, it has to be the tessera that is a trundle.

Unfortunately looks can be decieving. I've produced motleys from that one in the past.

I've wasted enough of my day here~ I'm going to ride the bike for awhile.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:11 PM   #39
SODERBERGD
Opinions . . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj View Post
I believe they are Striped Super Jungle Corns, with as near 100% Corn Snake blood as they can get.

I think Tesseras are the most exciting addition to our Corn Snake gene pool EVER! The way we got them is unfortunate, but they produce Corn Snake combines that we have never seen before, and improve all other combines.

If anybody really believes that our general Corn Snake gene pool is pure corn, you are living a fantasy.
Joe:
I don't frequent the forums, so perhaps you already posted the evidence that Tesseras are inter-species hybrids.

In lieu of DNA evidence, all of our observations are just our personal opinions. If Mike had not admitted he used Gray Snows (Gray Rat X Snow Corn) to make the first generation of Ultramels, we'd all still say they wreak of characteristics and genetic productions unlike what we have seen in "pure" corns. One could say the same about Cinder, Sunkissed, and other mutations in corn snakes, but without empirical evidence (nDNA), each of us is left to our own opinions. Personally, I think Tesseras SMACK of hybrid origins, but other than what my eyes tell me, I have only the word of the person who sent the first reverse trio to Graham Criglow - saying that he bred a Striped Corn to an Okeetee Corn. That Striped "corn" had to be a striped-type Tessera for him to get four Tesseras in the first generation. The things we see in the Tessera mutation are so incredibly atypical for mutations in corns, I too question the heritage of Tessera Corns, but gene mutations are capable of products far beyond what we see in Tesseras. You already know that most North American colubrids are closely genetically related. I know guys 20 years ago who bred Amel corns to Albino California Kings and got all Albino progeny. That "indicates" that corns and Cal Kings are cousins. Therefore, is it not possible that mutations would be related between two such species? It's practical to presume that most of the mutations demonstrated in serpents today were in the genome of a common serpent ancestor millions of years ago, so it's no stretch of the imagination to deduce that since we see Albinos, Axanthics, Melanistics, and myriad other gene mutations in most snake species, whatever can affect the phenotype of one species, can affect another WITHOUT being a result of a recent hybridization?

Like you, the crazy genetic impacts imposed by the Tessera mutation are too good to be true. I'd be the first to suspect they are the result of alien genes from a different species, since hybridization often brings such oddities to light, but I have no evidence to support such a theory. It's not enough to say, "looks like something I saw in California Kings". Imagine how dramatic the first Motley corn mutant was to breeders and keepers back in the 1960s? If people had regularly been performing inter-species hybridizations in herpetoculture back then, surely the Motley would have been such a hybrid suspect?

They call them "opinions" because they are subjective and lack evidence. If someone has definitive nDNA evidence to say that Cinders, Tesseras, Ultras, or other gene mutations demonstrated in corns are/are not borrowed from other species or a direct result of inter-species hybridization, the result is not opinion, but fact. You, me, and everyone else is entitled to their opinions (based on them saying "that looks like something I saw in a California King once" but that in and of itself does not render the conclusion that is must therefore be a California King Snake hybrid.

I'm fully aware that propaganda campaigns require constant bombardment of ideas and theories so this is not directed toward your constant referral to Tesseras as hybrids. It's just a reminder that anything we say is just a theory or opinion in the absence of hard evidence. Again, what I see in the Tessera mutations (and more importantly, the collateral non-Tessera- homozygote siblings) reminds me of inter-species hybridization. Thankfully, we're not talking about thoroughbred animals worth millions of dollars. We're dealing with hobby corns that are constantly bred to entertain people. I'm very much against intentional hybridization of any reptiles, but if we find out one day that Tesseras are indeed the result of hybridization with California Kings, I doubt everyone is going to throw all their Tesseras (and related non-Tesseras) in the freezer. Once such stains are in the genome, they're impossible to get out. Just like Dachshunds are the selective-breeding result of changing wolf genes, even if the genetic stain of wolves is not evident in present-day Dachshunds, it's always there. IF it is discovered that Cinder, Sunkissed, Tessera and other mutations owe their genetic oddities to other species, they're in the hobby to stay. I realize your campaign is to encourage people not to breed Tesseras, but at the end of the day--like it or not--Tesseras are not going away. Calling them Jungle corns should perhaps be qualified by a claim that it is not common knowledge (because there is no DNA evidence) but your personal opinion - based on having seen so many hybrids between California Kings and Corns. Without it, some readers who are new to the hobby may presume that you actually presented evidence to support your "opinions" somewhere on the forums. Personally, all the Jungle Corns I've seen and had over the decades did not genetically behave like the Tesseras at all.

Just my opinion.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:17 PM   #40
ecreipeoj
Anery Tessera het Striped Dilute x Blue Motley het Striped

This is the key breeding that proved to me that what everybody has been calling a "Striped" Tessera is actually a Moltey Tessera OR Motley/Striped Tessera.

My Anery Tessera het Striped Dilute was produced from a breeding between Tess het Ghost x Striped Blue. I tested my original Tessera to every gene in my colony because it was sold with unknown hets. He did not produce a Motley or Striped, so he wasn't carrying either gene.

When I bred him to my Striped Blue, which is Striped/Stripe, or we wouldn't be looking at a Striped, the only gene possible to be passed onto its offspring is Striped, so I produced an Anery Tessera het Striped Dilute.

The Blue Motley that proved the Motley Tess pheno to me was a result of a breeding between a Blue Moltey ph Striped x Striped Blue. She picked up one gene from the Motley parent and one gene from the Striped parent, and is a Motley/Striped. Her pattern proves the recessive Striped Gene has NO effect on the dominant Motley Pattern.

This year I hatched clutches from Tess het Striped Opal (Tess het Ghost x Striped Lavender het Opal) x Striped het Opal (20 eggs) and produced the Tessera pheno and Stripes only. Nothing that looked like Tom's Tessera. I also bred Anery Tess het Striped Dilute X Striped Blue (18 eggs) again, I only produced the Tess and Striped phenos. Some perfect Stripes, some Vanishing and some like the Striped Tess photos I posted above.

When I hatched out the clutch from Anery Tess het Striped Dilute x Blue Motley het Striped, I produced ALL possible phenos except Striped Tessera. This was due to low odds, BUT the key is, since my breeding was reversed, with 100% known genetics, Tess het Striped X Motley/Striped, I saw what everybody has been calling a "Striped" Tessera is in fact a Motley Tessera.

The reason the mistake has been reoccurring, is because when you breed a Motley Tess or Motley/Striped Tess x Striped, you can produce the mistake again, without knowing it. The "Striped" Tess is actually a Motley/Striped Tess and looks just like the parent "Striped Tess", so everybody thought they were correct.

The problem is that the Motley Tess pheno was mistakenly thought to be a "Striped" Tess pheno in the beginning. Each time they were bred to a Striped, the dominant Motley gene in their Tessera produced some Motley offspring of which some were Tesseras.
 

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