shatter vs het cinder?

I’m scratching my head trying to figure out some of these babies. Pairing was a caramel, sunkissed, diffused Miami het cinder X caramel, sunkissed het diffused 50%ph cinder. So all babies are at least visual caramel and sunkissed. My initial thoughts are caramel, sunkissed, diffused Miami het cinder and caramel, sunkissed Miami het cinder, diffused.

What is throwing me off is the caramel shatter listing on ians looks nothing like the caramel shatters I have produced but more like the ones that are het cinder. I also see several listed as “shatters” on morph market that don’t really look like shatters to me and I would be tempted to call them as het cinder. Are there different grades of shatters or are other people mis-interpreting het cinder for a visual cinder? The one shown on ians I would personally label as caramel sunkissed het cinder.
http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/?m=caramel_shatter
https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/reptiles/colubrids/corn-snakes/365743

For reference these are the caramel shatters I produced last year. The last pic you can see the difference of shatter vs the caramel sunkissed ph cinder.

There are definitely different grades of Shatter. I always thought ALL Shatters looked like the original heavily pixelated animal because that is always what I produced, but they don't. Some don't even have the broken/shattered saddles. Instead they have oddly shaped saddles and more of them. Cinder is a fun gene with a strong influence visually. I'd agree that the animals you posted are Het Cinder rather than Homo for the gene.

Terri

I might be able to be convinced that the first photo and the last are Shatters though...

Terri

The pattern I'm seeing a lot in the line I'm working with, the het appears to be similar to a hurricane on a weather map where it's kind of a swirl or whirlpool look. The homo form seems to be more of the pixelated or dashed look with a greater reduction in the caramel. .....but I could be wrong since it's such a weird gene.

For me it's less the pattern in question, and more the color. The brown tones shouldn't be seen on something homozygous cinder. Your own previous year photos show that the caramel shatter doesn't have the brown tones that all your questionable babies from this year have.

Shiari said:

For me it's less the pattern in question, and more the color. The brown tones shouldn't be seen on something homozygous cinder. Your own previous year photos show that the caramel shatter doesn't have the brown tones that all your questionable babies from this year have.

Click to expand...

That was my line of thinking too and how I made the decision of what they were. To me the picture posted by steve roylance on ians can be a cause for mis-identification.

Can't help you with the genetics, but I just wanted to say those are some GORGEOUS babies!

Good discussion. And I agree with the above regarding color being the clue to the puzzle.
Also I have noticed in wild types het cinder that the blotches edges are slightly more jagged than non hets in most examples.

Hi all!

I don't have anything to contribute other than to say that I love the discussion. Shatters have been on my list to own or breed for a while. And, the hatchlings are very cool!

Enjoy,

-Tonya