3 year old corn died and I feel terrible

Really sorry if this is the wrong place or not something I should post. I'm not really looking for answers specifically but am open to suggestions as to what might have happened to my snake. He passed away last night and I just feel terrible although I don't think I could have done anything.

Steve was 3 years old and seemingly very healthy. He always ate once a week on the same day (1 large mouse) and pooped almost exactly 72 hours later, very regular guy. In general he was pretty active at night. He was in a 4 foot viv with aspen bedding and we cleaned him out regularly- spot checks every day and we would change out all the aspen and wipe the heat mat every 6-8 weeks. He always had enough water. The warm end of the viv was usually 26 degrees c and the cool end around 22-23c. He spent most of his time in his hide in the cool end. He used to shed very regularly. The only unusual thing we had was earlier this year he stopped eating for about 5 weeks but was very active, and after reading online we presumed it was due to mating season. He resumed eating, shedding and pooping after this.

More recently he missed two feeds. Unfortunately as I am away at university/college my mum looks after him and as she is not a huge fan of reptiles she might not have picked up any signs that I would have done. He had also not shed in about 10 weeks. As sometimes he has missed feeds in the past and he was overdue a shed we presumed he didn't eat because of this.

Yesterday morning (Sunday) around 10am he was awake and outside of his hut which I thought was strange but thought he might be trying to shed. A little while later his head and neck skin had shed but he wasn't really attempting to get rid of the rest- usually he sheds in one go and it comes off in one piece. I thought it might be because he was lethargic and not the right time of day for him to shed. I stroked him which usually makes him jump a little bit but he barely responded- I picked him up and he poked his tongue out a bit and made a breathing noise but wasn't as responsive as usual so I put him back to avoid touching him and causing pain. Later in the afternoon around 5pm he was moving around his viv a lot more and opening his mouth- I thought he was now trying to get rid of the skin. I left him to it and came back around 8/9pm. He still had not finished shedding but was now getting very agitated and moving his body in very unusual ways. I picked him up and his head and neck seemed floppy but his lower body was making all sort of movements. I panicked as he twisted and contorted into unusual shapes and he started to open his mouth a lot and flop down on his side and with his head upside down, at one point his head flopped into the water bowl. I tried to call a vet but at 9:30pm on a Sunday night I couldn't get hold of anyone quick enough. Within 10 minutes of this violent wriggling and throwing his head around he went very limp with very few movements. I took him to a warm bath to see if that helped and let his head rest on his body so it was out of the water. There was no response and when I picked him up he was completely floppy. I touched his body all over including his face and no response at all. He had absolutely no muscle tone, no tongue or mouth movement, no more breathing sound.

At that point I knew he was probably dead but didn't want to risk 'disposing' of him in case. Thought he might be hibernating or brumating at one point (ridiculous panic thought i know) but as far as I am aware they don't have 'seizure'-like movements when they are going to brumate or hibernate (and they don't do this anyway unless owners are trying to breed, from what I have read?). I put him in a cardboard box lid on a towel on his heat mat in the viv. I took a picture of him and left him for an hour. His body had not moved at all and was completely limp when I lifted him again. I left him overnight just in case. In the morning (about 10 hours after he went limp) his body was quite rigid and I guess this is rigor mortis. We put him in towels in a cardboard box and disposed of him (I don't have anywhere or any tools to bury him, which I also feel terrible about).

I feel terrible for not doing something sooner like calling a vet during the day when he wasn't as responsive as usual. But I presumed that because he was moving a fair bit he must be okay, and by the time i really knew something was wrong it was just too late and I wouldn't have been able to drive to a vet in time. I thought the behaviour might have just been because of his overdue shed, perhaps it was very uncomfortable for him. I just have no idea what could have happened and will always be a mystery. I checked the bit of skin he had shed and it was all intact so I don't think he could have 'choked' on it (if that's even possible). If I had other reptiles i would definitely consider a PM to find a cause.

Anyone else had similar death experiences (with the seizure-like behaviour, mouth open, star-gazing type behaviour) before death? Any deaths during shedding?

For future reference, corn snakes do better with a warm end temp of around 83 to 88 degrees F (Which translates to about 29 or 30 C) and the Cool end temp you had was ok, but I like it a tad bit warmer (74 F or 23.5 C).

You stated he made a breathing noise when you poked him. Perhaps he had a "Cold" or Respiratory Infection as people around here call it, and that could have been due to the cooler than normal temps inside the cage. I rarely hear any "breathing noise" from my snake.

It's imposible for anyone here on an Internet Message Forum to say for sure. The snake could have had a condition unknown to anyone. It's hard to say. But the key to "getting off to a good start" is to research everything ahead of time and be prepared. To always have fresh clean water, to always have a clean cage, and to always have proper temperatures. Most of the time when a snake dies with no apparent reason, it's due to unclean conditions or improper temps or improper feeding.

Hi Karl_Mcknight

Yes I agree it could have been perhaps a bit warmer. But as he never spent any time in the warm end of his viv (unless he was just having a quick run around) I presumed that the cool end was more comfortable for him. He had a hide at both ends and plenty of aspen to bury in so I feel like he had a fair bit of 'choice' as to where to go and thought if he needed to be warmer he'd go to the heat mat.

I think the breathing noise was more of a hiss- not aggressive but just a slight hiss. He would do it all the time when he was healthy and when I picked him up etc. He would poke out his tongue at the same time. My ex-partner who gave me him as a gift has kept many snakes before and never expressed any concern and I guess I relied a lot on his knowledge.

His cage was always clean and he was very regular with eating, pooping and shedding so I guess the only thing could have been the temperature. But as I said, he was always at the cool end so I presumed this was okay for him Of course, can't know anything about other conditions he might have had... poor Steve

lucyjane1611 said:

Hi Karl_Mcknight

1). Yes I agree it could have been perhaps a bit warmer. But as he never spent any time in the warm end of his viv (unless he was just having a quick run around) I presumed that the cool end was more comfortable for him. 2). He had a hide at both ends and plenty of aspen to bury in so I feel like he had a fair bit of 'choice' as to where to go and thought if he needed to be warmer he'd go to the heat mat.

3). I think the breathing noise was more of a hiss- not aggressive but just a slight hiss. He would do it all the time when he was healthy and when I picked him up etc. He would poke out his tongue at the same time. My ex-partner who gave me him as a gift has kept many snakes before and never expressed any concern and I guess I relied a lot on his knowledge.

His cage was always clean and he was very regular with eating, pooping and shedding so I guess the only thing could have been the temperature. But as I said, he was always at the cool end so I presumed this was okay for him Of course, can't know anything about other conditions he might have had... poor Steve

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1). You should have still provided the correct temps. He might have used the warm side more often if it was warm enough. We'll never know now will we?
2). Choice is nice, but when your choice is "Colder and Colder" then choice does not really matter.
3). I'll defer to those people who have corn snakes that "Hiss all the time." Mine doesn't. Diagnosing a snake with an illness is not easy. They can't tell you what is wrong. But "Wheezing, Coughing, and Sneezing" are signs of illness. If the snake was "Hissy" all the time, was it really a hiss or was it a wheeze? I'm not saying "either / or" but I've encountered more people that "Have no clue how to take care of a snake" than I have people that "Do everything correctly."

Just sayin'

It sounds to me like either a respiratory infection that came on quickly, and they can, or just one of those things. It could have been just about anything and there well may have been nothing you could have done even if you had been able to get him to a vet.

I'm so sorry for your loss. One thing around here, we know he wasn't "just a snake". Sending love and support in your grief. RIP Steve.

The advice I was given from both friends and reptile shops was that 26c was fine. During the winter when the heating in the house is on it would quickly go up to 27/28 and if the warm end was less than 26 we would put a heater on next to the vivarium.

Again, the advice I got was that the hissing sound when he poked his tongue was entirely normal. If reptile shop keepers aren't experts with reptiles then I don't really know what other knowledge I should be able to rely on, especially given that many other people on the internet report the same noise, combined with the fact it was something he had done for as long as I had him (3 years).

Thanks DollysMom for your kind words. He was always such a placid, chilled out kind of guy. I just hate to think that he was in pain.

I would suggest you read through the section of this forum called "Husbandry and Basic Care." I know you probably think I'm being mean and you don't want to listen to me.

That section will explain what I've been trying to tell you.

I know you were "advised" by other people, but this is a "Corn Snake Forum." Believe it or not, but there are a few folks here that know how to take care of corn snakes. And it's also possible that the "People that advised you might have been wrong."

Most of the folks here "Have Heated Cages." All the time. Even in the Summer. You have stated you did not.

Reptiles need "Heat." Before you buy another snake, please do a little research first.

lucyjane1611 said:

Thanks DollysMom for your kind words. He was always such a placid, chilled out kind of guy. I just hate to think that he was in pain.

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I know. I've lost pets. Pet grief is its own special kind of mourning. Whatever happened, try to think of him slithering over the Rainbow Bridge to a forest full of mice to eat and hiding places to curl up in. Take some small comfort in knowing that any pain he might have had is over.

"Most of the folks here "Have Heated Cages." All the time. Even in the Summer. You have stated you did not."

Where did I state that?

He had a heat mat that was on all the time (every day of the year regardless of season), a heat lamp that came on during the day from 9am-9pm (every day of the year, regardless of season). On days where the air in the house was cooler (i.e. autumn and winter), we would put on an extra heater outside of the vivarium in the room to maintain warmer air. The cool end never went below 22c and the warm end never below 26.

Sorry but if you saw that something was not right with him then you should have taken him to the vet! See if you would have done that just maybe you could of save your corn a good reptile vet would gave you some medication for him. Sorry for your lost but like Karl Mcknight said do some research before you get another snake.

Just FYI- I didn't buy this snake myself, I didn't want this snake, he was given to me and I did the best I could with my knowledge to look after him. Nothing went wrong and nothing changed over 3 years, multiple sources verified that the husbandry was good. What am I to do with a pet that I don't want when nowhere will take him except for a place where he would be put down? I did my absolute best in each situation and did plenty of research, I always tried to do what I could for him and a vet checkup earlier in the year verified that he was healthy. He was always fed, watered, cleaned and I regularly checked his body and skin.

In the situation, it's only in retrospect I feel guilty. As I said previously, had I suspected a problem as opposed to shedding discomfort of courseI would have done something quicker rather than presuming it to be thought it just to be a difficult shed.

Nonetheless, had I taken him to a vet it would have been over a 1.5 hour car journey. The nearest reptile vet is 30 mins away but on a Sunday evening nowhere is open. If he is in discomfort, do I risk causing him severe trauma and stress by putting him in a car for that long? Not exactly an easy choice to make.

Please do not suggest that I did not do enough research. How many more internet forums and pages am I supposed to scour when I have already spoken to a vet, multiple reptile shop staff, and friends who have experience of keeping reptiles?

goodbye unhelpful people!

It's a shame that nobody has actually attempted to answer the question or share similar experience yet are just here to tell people how they have done wrong, as though as a first time pet owner I am supposed to be as knowledgable as a vet (literally, followed the advice of a vet anyway) and everything was fine for 3 years, having changed nothing about his upkeep.

Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence (and sympathy), you perfect pet owners! well done to you for never making a mistake.

Lucyjane. to answer your question, no I’ve never seen what you describe.

Personally, I think this is not the time for recriminations. No one here knows what happened or if Steve could have been saved.

I can tell that you were attached to him and that some of the reactions here are very upsetting. I have not reacted that way. I have a vet and my snakes get regular vet care. I’m not sure I could have done better than you did under the circumstances. We are all always learning and even when we are doing everything we know to do, stuff happens.

I can tell that you did everything you knew and followed the best advice that you were able to get at the time. I hope that others will refrain from piling on with woulda, coulda, shoulda, right now.

We all have things we don’t know and have yet to learn.

P.S. not only have I never seen what you described, I've never heard of anything similar. What happened is not at all usual.

26°C is just under 79°F, which honestly is warmer than some breeders keep their males. I doubt heating was an issue. A regular hissing noise can mean anything from stuck shed in the nostrils to respiratory illness to a huffy attitude. I would not expect someone to automatically know the difference. As for his death throes, unfortunately it does seem to be common. Without a thorough necropsy, we can only speculate at the cause. Perhaps you could have done something, or perhaps he had a preexisting condition which you could never have known about.

But by all means, write off the lot of us before anyone else has a chance to respond.

Possibly Steve had a random seizure and that's what caused his passing?

I have seen/heard of it happening in people maybe same for snakes?

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I am totally knew here. I've only had Daisy for 10 days but I've been reading forums, fact sheets, care sheets, listening to breeders, snake owners, pet shop owners and one thing that I've noticed..... they all have similar but different advice.

Turn the mat off at night, don't turn it off, feed in the viv, don't feed in the viv, snakes stop feeding when shedding, snakes still feed when shedding, use heat mat, use heat lamp instead.... I can go on and on. I'm a bit confused to be honest but this probes one thing. That there are several "right" ways of keeping a happy pet snake and some work better for some snakes.

A snake can die from different causes like a person can. They can have genetic conditions, tutors, heart attacks etc etc.... from what I've been reading. I've to it husbandry has been good then I don't think you should blame yourself. Research and research again but sometimes snakes, like other pets just die. I worry about Daisy all the time and I judge everything I do and the reason for that is because it's all so vague! I really don't think that a slight different temperature can kill a snake but then again I'm a college novice and I have a lot to learn myself!
I'm very sorry for your loss.

Daisy June 17, a butter motley corn snake

Apologies, I'm rushing because I have no battery and I've made a few spellings mistakes like 'proves', 'tumors' etc

Daisy June 17, a butter motley corn snake

While it is true that a lot of people have "Opinions" and "Different Ideas" about raising snakes, that doesn't mean that they are "All Ok or All right." Sometimes people are wrong. Even people that visit this website. There may be Hundreds, even thousands of members here, but "Everyone" can't be right, nor can everyone be wrong.

If we are going to keep snakes as pets, then we should seek out info from "The Experts." The young Kid at the local Pet Shop most of the times knows less than most people. So...who are the experts? You could start by reading books (yes there are actual published books) about keeping pet snakes. Somebody who has raised corn snakes for many years and has taken the time to write a book about it, and has actually got it published, and it's known for being "One of the Best Books on the Market" should be trusted over some 19 year old college kid working part time at PetsMart.

So, there are 2 books listed below, "By the Corn Snake Experts." Now, nobody has to take my word for it, or the PetsMart guy's word for it, or some internet Forum's word for it, you can actually study the best books on the subject and find out for yourself.

These are the books that about 50% of the people around here have studied, and the other 50% are the ones' that come here to argue about why their snake's are always ill.


https://www.amazon.com/Corn-Snakes-Comprehensive-Herpetocultural-Library/dp/1882770706

https://www.amazon.com/Corn-Snakes-Captivity-Don-Soderberg-ebook/dp/B009NI6LK8