How many holdbacks for ph?

I have a female that is a caramel and het for sunkissed and cinder. I'm out crossing her to a male okeetee. So babies for the project should be het caramel 50% ph sunkissed and cinder. How many babies would you hold back for future pairings? Or how would you decide how many to hold back?

I figure for good odds of having both possible hets be in there somewhere, at least a 3.3 Then you get the fun game of spending 3 years after maturity testing each male to the females to see who has matching hets and if any of them have both.
You'd be better off finding her a shatter to mate with, and then holding back any shatter het caramel offspring if your end goal is caramel shatters.

I guess it would help some to know what I already have related to the project and the end goal.

I have already:
1.0 caramel, sunkissed, diffused Miami het cinder
0.1 caramel sunkissed, het diffused, 50%ph cinder
0.1 caramel Miami het sunkissed, cinder.
0.1 caramel, sunkissed Miami het diffused, 66%ph cinder (produced in house)
1.0 caramel, sunkissed, cinder Miami (produced in house)

I've already produced the caramel shatters and have the means to produce more. The cinder isn't really a concern and can be disregarded. The goal now is to out cross to an extreme Okeetee to get the thicker borders and have something without visual caramel. Below are the things I would like to produce to add to my collection.

- Miami Okeetee
- sunkissed Miami/sunkissed Miami Okeette
- caramel sunkissed Miami Okeetee

The end goal of the outcrossing is for the carmel sunkissed Miami Okeetee. I'm hoping for a simple clean and contrasting snake with bright yellow saddles, thick black borders on a grey background. A look very similar to a Mandarin rat snake but in a corn.

I was originally thinking 2.2 hold backs should be enough since I have enough visuals and known hets to help with test breedings and to refine the desired looks.

In that case.... get one of Carol's thick bordered miamis so you don't have to spend as long getting back to the gray ground color.

Shiari said:

In that case.... get one of Carol's thick bordered miamis so you don't have to spend as long getting back to the gray ground color.

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Hmm that might be a pairing for the 2021 year since I already have one of those but she has a mate for this year.

One thing you may want to consider is how good is your luck quotient?

Luck plays a BIG part in the genetics dice rolling.

I used to have to hold back a LOT of project animals, because I found out the hard way that I was one of Murphy's favorite play toys.

I believe the line you are working with the cinder gene is whats giving it the miami look. So you want to have het cinders. Any offspring that may look more grey should prove to be het cinder

Outcrossing with possible hets is madness. Unless you have the time a space for many hold backs, good luck!
I’m always trying to keep my corn collection under or around 40 snakes due to time and space constraints. This seems to be about all I can handle to keep my collection healthy and thriving considering I have a full time job, 3 kids (in their teens now), a wife and a house to take care of.
With all that said, I will only work with 2.2 known hets or take the short cut of purchasing a multi visual mutant for out crossing.
But I wish I could retire now so I can have the time. And when I have the time, I’ll make the space.

I can remember MANY instances at shows when someone would look at a multi-homozygous animal I was selling and ask me about the genetics involved. When I would tell them, they very often would walk away and say they would just roll their own rather than pay that higher price for the animals I was selling.

Well good luck with that!

They didn't have a clue about the resources and commitment that was going to take to accomplish. I engaged in many projects that from the time I thought "I wonder what those genes combined would look like" to the "gee, that is not what I expected", might be 12 or more years in the making.

When I retired there were a LOT of projects in various stages of being finished that were just lost. The guy buying them had no interest in continuing any of the projects, unfortunately. I know I had at least two new "hypomelanistic" like genes in the mix that had just shown up that last year I was in the business. Of course I would have wanted to combine every one of the hypomelanistic type genes together to see if I could finally get a transparent snake. :laugh:

.... what *would* a hypo dilute lava ultramel look like, I wonder....

Even in my short time breeding it is amazing to hear people say "i'll just make my own" without considering the time and effort involved. I know a lot of those people come from the ball python world and don't have to deal with recessive genes as much.

There is one combo I'm hoping to produce this year that started as me saying "I'll make my own", but that is only because nobody else has made them. A few years back I got the needed visual adults for the project. I'm hoping for honey Miami tesseras.

Shiari you should produce those to see what you get.

Rich Z said:

I can remember MANY instances at shows when someone would look at a multi-homozygous animal I was selling and ask me about the genetics involved. When I would tell them, they very often would walk away and say they would just roll their own rather than pay that higher price for the animals I was selling.

Well good luck with that!

They didn't have a clue about the resources and commitment that was going to take to accomplish. I engaged in many projects that from the time I thought "I wonder what those genes combined would look like" to the "gee, that is not what I expected", might be 12 or more years in the making.

When I retired there were a LOT of projects in various stages of being finished that were just lost. The guy buying them had no interest in continuing any of the projects, unfortunately. I know I had at least two new "hypomelanistic" like genes in the mix that had just shown up that last year I was in the business. Of course I would have wanted to combine every one of the hypomelanistic type genes together to see if I could finally get a transparent snake. :laugh:

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Man, I wish I was around, and not on hiatus, when you decided to retire. ::sigh::

67temp said:

Shiari you should produce those to see what you get.

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nooooo I dun wanna play with lava and dilute. XD I'm fully with Rich that Hypo is a four letter word.

Shiari said:

nooooo I dun wanna play with lava and dilute. XD I'm fully with Rich that Hypo is a four letter word.

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Hmm now that you mentioned it I'm not fond of it either and only have one hypo and one het hypo in my collection.

I hate the recent craze where everyone wants to throw a bunch of genes together to make a "worlds first" only to end up with just another white patternless snake. I think the best looking combos are when you take a wild type or local add only one or two colors, a pattern, and a color enhancer.

67temp said:

I hate the recent craze where everyone wants to throw a bunch of genes together to make a "worlds first" only to end up with just another white patternless snake. I think the best looking combos are when you take a wild type or local add only one or two colors, a pattern, and a color enhancer.

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On Bansidhe's behalf, I'm offended. At least amel isn't the reason he's white. XD But apparently if you put anery, charcoal, and lavender together and then add hypo, you still end up with a white snake.