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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

king snake influence in tessera morph?
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:48 PM   #201
Nanci
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyBaroness View Post

What Dave is trying to prove is that a visually striped cal king cross will NOT produce visually striped offspring in the FIRST generation when bred with a corn snake.
Thank you! I'd gotten lost in all the....speculation.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 05:12 PM   #202
dave partington
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
So what's the plan for all the offspring produced from this?.....nevermind the theory. Like, where will they go......freezer?, show tables to be bought and bred later on?.........and as what? Even if they are initially labeled 100% accurately...once they are in posession of countless others, all that goes completely out the window. What if the Cal. kings used originally were Newport-Long Beach coastal aberrants and not San Diego stripes?


~Doug
Doug, great post, as usual.
Back in January when you and me exchanged a dozen or so PM's, I asked you about the Cal King localities, and learned at that time, (can't remember the exact locality names here, I am sure you'll know them, what with your new book on the shelves &c)-- anyways you mentioned a couple different localities, one where some individuals are striped, others not--
and-
a locality from where all of the Cal Kings are striped.
At that time I was wondering if using a different form of CalKing, from the ALL striped locality, would be a better choice for studying the inheritance. What I find really odd about this public post of yours is that while you have disdain for hybrids, merely suggesting that another locality of Cal King might prove out higher heritablity of stripe, makes an interesting speculation to those of us who might not have considered making that cross. But since you have now publicly mentioned it outloud...
Anyways you'd dismissed that the heritablity stripe would make no difference as to the locality back in January, but now that you've brought it up again are you saying it might make a difference now?
 
Old 04-22-2013, 07:09 PM   #203
DMong
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave partington View Post
Doug, great post, as usual.
Back in January when you and me exchanged a dozen or so PM's, I asked you about the Cal King localities, and learned at that time, (can't remember the exact locality names here, I am sure you'll know them, what with your new book on the shelves &c)-- anyways you mentioned a couple different localities, one where some individuals are striped, others not--
and-
a locality from where all of the Cal Kings are striped.
At that time I was wondering if using a different form of CalKing, from the ALL striped locality, would be a better choice for studying the inheritance. What I find really odd about this public post of yours is that while you have disdain for hybrids, merely suggesting that another locality of Cal King might prove out higher heritablity of stripe, makes an interesting speculation to those of us who might not have considered making that cross. But since you have now publicly mentioned it outloud...
Anyways you'd dismissed that the heritablity stripe would make no difference as to the locality back in January, but now that you've brought it up again are you saying it might make a difference now?

Hi Dave. The Honduran book isn't in final print just yet, as we are still adding and editing many things,..........but will be available fairly soon. The Cal. king book will be a bit later on, but some of the content has begun a while back.

Sure, there are different locales of stripes, banded, and countless other mixed phenotypes in the wild and in captivity. What I recall saying is that MANY in the hobby are of mixed localities, lineages, and all sorts of variable phenotypes, so predicting EXACTLY what will be produced in many of these captive Cal. king clutches can be very unpredictable. This goes for certain locales too. As to precise inheritance, San Diego striped phenotypes are dominant over bandeded forms, but I don't know all about exactly what will be produced when bred to whatever types someone happens to have. As I said a good while back, this can depend GREATLY on the parent stock lineage and what all their specific background was/is. I haven't bred enough Cal. kings personally to begin to know everything about their inheritance. Others like Kerby Ross, Ross Padilla, Brian Hubbs, Paul Lynum, etc..and many others know more about . Ross Padilla's Cal. king site is the one I suggested to you to check out back then. He and the others field herp all over California and are far more familiar with the different phenotypes from the different counties and what not than I am.

I am interested if 50% normal clutches and 50% tessera phenotype animals are absolutely predictable just like everyone else is, but on the other hand as you know I don't care for producing hybrids either..LOL!.....so it is pretty tough to have the cake and eat it too where I sit. Now as Shiari mentoned, I don't know if that breeding will prove or disprove anything, because you didn't start off with a 100% locality authentic Cal. king of any type........I just don't know either way to be honest. I don't even know if it makes a difference if a San Diego stripe is used or a Newport-Long Beach aberrant is used.......the Newports are what Tessseras most look like phenotypically, but I don't know which type might have been used, or if the clean San Diego when mixed with cornsnake genetics give them this look......This is all stuff that I do not know at all. I was only asking about where the known hybrid offspring would go....nothing more really.


~Doug
 
Old 04-23-2013, 02:40 AM   #204
Rich Z
Back when I used to work with Cal kings, I discovered that incubation temps played a significant part in what the babies would look like when mixing banded and striped parents. With constant controlled temps in an incubator, the babies would usually exhibit a mixture of the two patterns. However when the eggs were incubated at room temps, with day/night fluctuations, the babies would hatch out with either banded or striped patterns with NO mixing of the two.

YMMV, as it could easily just have been some sort of statistical fluke. Murphy did that to me quite often over the years.
 
Old 04-09-2015, 11:51 PM   #205
nmoore601
What was the outcome of the test?
 
Old 04-10-2015, 02:15 PM   #206
DuxorW
Since this thread was revived, just figured I'd put in my two cents as a geneticist, since there is some flawed genetics in this thread. Not that he needs my validation, but I think Mitchell Mulks has a strong genetic argument that was carefully laid out in a thoughtful dispassionate way.

I agree with Mitch that it is trivial to breed out all the kingsnake phenotypic markers in a few generations such that you get something that looks like a corn in every way (aside from the tesselated phenotype). You could then breed those snakes to a tessera (ideally a super tessera) to get enough offspring to show with statistics that whatever creates the tessera phenotype in the "kingcorn tessera" line is at the same locus as the corn snake tessera allele. Ideally you'd be able to produce super tesseras (half of the offspring of this cross would be homozygous tessera if one parent is a super tessera and if the alleles are at the same locus) from that pairing that would produce all tessera corns when mated to a wt corn, which could only occur if the two alleles are at the same locus. This still wouldn't rule out that tessera was a spontaneous mutation in captive-bred corns, though, since this type of pattern seems to have evolved independently multiple times in colubrids, it could have happened in corns and you might expect the locus involved to be the same one as in kings. But if they turned out not to be allelic that would be pretty conclusive evidence against the king snake hybrid hypothesis.

The only way to know for sure would be to map the locus where the tessera allele resides. Sequencing is not enough, as due to normal variation there will be many sequences that differ between the tesseras and non tesseras. You have to find the one that actually represents the tessera locus (which is not trivial at all) rather than some other polymorphism. Typically this is done by finding "molecular markers" that segregate only with the tessera phenotype and using them to zero in on where the actual locus is. Then you could sequence the tessera locus and show that, in tessera corns, the tessera allele is more homologous to the king snake locus than the corn one. Who wants to fork out tens of thousands of dollars? I guess all I'm saying is that if Mitch is right I wouldn't be surprised, nor would I be surprised if it were a spontaneous mutation.
 
Old 04-10-2015, 07:53 PM   #207
yojoe05
I'm curious as well it's been two years going on now is there any progress with the project and it's outcome?
 
Old 04-10-2015, 10:30 PM   #208
MysticExotics
As far as I know, no one has yet to prove the hybrid theory.
I'm sticking with my belief that they are not.
 
Old 04-10-2015, 10:37 PM   #209
vetusvates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Back when I used to work with Cal kings, I discovered that incubation temps played a significant part in what the babies would look like when mixing banded and striped parents. With constant controlled temps in an incubator, the babies would usually exhibit a mixture of the two patterns. However when the eggs were incubated at room temps, with day/night fluctuations, the babies would hatch out with either banded or striped patterns with NO mixing of the two.

YMMV, as it could easily just have been some sort of statistical fluke. Murphy did that to me quite often over the years.
Note to self : think on this above quote.

And DuxorW's above post, as well.
 
Old 04-10-2015, 10:48 PM   #210
DuxorW
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticExotics View Post
As far as I know, no one has yet to prove the hybrid theory.
I'm sticking with my belief that they are not.
I'm just going to withhold judgment, since there is unlikely to be an observation that falsifies the hybrid theory, and because by this point if tessera were from another species it would be like ultra, where we wouldn't care anymore.
 

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