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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

king snake influence in tessera morph?
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Old 04-11-2015, 12:37 AM   #211
nmoore601
It will be interesting to see how this panned out.
 
Old 04-14-2015, 02:08 AM   #212
Ravenessa
Also just look at the silver fox project... That goes in line with Duxor, since I am not a good quotist I am just going to link you guys:
"The result is that Russian scientists now have a number of domesticated foxes that are fundamentally different in temperament and behavior from their wild forebears. Some important changes in physiology and morphology are now visible, such as mottled or spotted colored fur. Many scientists believe that these changes related to selection for tameness are caused by lower adrenaline production in the new breed, causing physiological changes in very few generations and thus yielding genetic combinations not present in the original species. This indicates that selection for tameness (i.e. low flight distance) produces changes that are also influential on the emergence of other "dog-like" traits, such as raised tail and coming into heat every six months rather than annually. These seemingly unrelated changes are a result of pleiotropy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
 
Old 04-14-2015, 01:41 PM   #213
DuxorW
I was really just adding my two cents to what Mitchell Mulks already pointed out, based on his direct academic experience in this area. But yeah, artificial selection can accomplish crazy things.
 
Old 04-24-2015, 09:31 PM   #214
SODERBERGD
Every time I've debated this issue (king hybrid VS spontaneous corn mutation), when I asked what mode of inheritance the Newport Kings possess (presuming they are the result of a mutation) the opposition almost always responded with discussion of the Striped Cal. King mutation instead. I've hunted the deserts of California (before, after, and during my residence in California) and don't recall ever seeing one with the tessellated pattern of the Tessera (I'm not saying they aren't seen in that mutation)? The Tessera corns look nothing like Striped Cal Kings until you add the Striped Corn mutation, so comparing apples to apples, I'd love for someone to chime in with evidence of the Newport's inheritance (in the interest of education). Are they polygenetic products or gene mutants? If someone said that the Striped Cal kings regularly exhibit the classically tessellated phenotype of the Tessera Corns, I'd be inclined to be more objective about that side of the debate, but as you point out, Duxor, in the absence of DNA evidence, it's a potentially deadlocked stalemate? Mitch would surely have the answer on the Newports (and Striped mutants), so I hope he can comment. I'm told he's doing breeding trials to attenpt to sort this out. Of course, my point begs the question, "IF Newports ARE mutants and if that mutant is recessive to wild-type, how does that play into the hybrid theory, with Tessera corn mutants being inherited via a form of dominance? BTW, Duxor, your comments are priceless in these matters. Thanks for schooling all of us on the genetics. And, BTW again, AFAIK there has only been one Tessera Homozygote in all these years. What's up with that? I've produced over 1,000 Tesseras, and have never produced a homozygote. Naturally, I don't keep all the babies to find out, but from my own experience, my customers' testimonies, and the collective corn snake chat community, there is only one homozygote (super form) in existence - that I'm aware? How do we categorize the Tessera mode of inheritance with this reality? I think it's safe to say that if I have produced over 1,000 Tesseras, surely there have been 15K-20K produced world-wide. While possible that 1:20K does not definitively say there aren't more Homos to come, but Vegas odds are against this indicating there will be more? Also, as you point out, Duxor, for people to say it's LESS likely that the Tessellated mutation is spontaneous in "pure" corns, is silly. It would be ignoring where wild Newports got it (IF they are mutants), where the wild Elaphe situla got it, and where the "garter-like" phenotype derived in other species? To say it's unlikely or impossible for Tesseras to be pure corns may also insist the question, "what species was crossed with Cal Kings to render their "perhaps" borrowed mutation? I realize Tessera corns sprang from captive-breeding--slanting suspicion--but it still speaks to some people not understanding that all North American colubrids have a common ancestor? Why can't all Cal King mutations be NATURALLY hiding in corns and vice-versa?
 
Old 04-24-2015, 11:01 PM   #215
DuxorW
Do tessera x tessera breedings result in more infertile eggs than usual?
 
Old 04-24-2015, 11:31 PM   #216
dave partington
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
Do tessera x tessera breedings result in more infertile eggs than usual?
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=129775

I bred the original female to the original male which Don sent me. The same pairing was done by KJ when he first got them. My outcome was 11 fertile eggs, which hatched out 8 Tesseras, 3 visual motleys. No slugs. This year I've bred the original male with a female which I got on trade, just a classic/normal Tessera- no idea what her hets even are. As far as I know she's one of the first 96 which Don made available the first year they were out there for others to have. Gravid she is, we'll see what that outcome is.

Just for kicks and giggles I placed the 3/4 corn 1/4 cal king striped female earlier in this thread, in the tub with the original male Tessera. Just to see what might happen. Too many questions started churning around in my mind with all of these posts all over the web about the possibility of hybrids. Suffice it to say, the male has never let me down when he encounters a female cremesicle or a female ultra/ultramel. in fact he's quite the breeding machine when it comes to any female corn.
Well, he absolutely panicked the moment he sensed her, was looking for an exit route FAST. She went into kingsnake mode and wanted to EAT HIM. So I broke them up. So this answered my question for myself. I have since passed the female known hybrid out of my collection to another breeder. Who is making some Thayer x Milk X Kingkorns with her this year.

Anyone who wants to continue on with this line of God-given reasoning that they [Tessera] is of hybrid origin as they can tell simply by looking at the pictures online is quite welcome to their belief. I have seen no evidence of any truth to it.

No wild striped cornsnake has ever been found.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 12:13 AM   #217
MysticExotics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
Do tessera x tessera breedings result in more infertile eggs than usual?
Here is Graham's Tessera to Tessera pairing thread
 
Old 04-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #218
snakepunk
What are we to think of the very "un-normal" non-tessera siblings?

Or the anonymity of the originator who produced the first tesseras?

Or the ever-evolving phenotype of tesseras?

To me, it seems to be more of a cumulative case. Maybe no one piece is convincing itself, but taken as a whole the hybrid argument is a better explanation.

But as someone else has pointed out, by now it no longer matters one way or the other. Just like ultra, tesseras and any of their other *possible* genetic ingredients are well established and thoroughly mixed into the captive cornsnake gene pool.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 11:14 AM   #219
DuxorW
I guess I'm just trying to understand why there is allegedly only one homozygous tessera, if, on average, 1/3 of the tessera offspring should be homozygous in a tess x tess cross. But if it doesn't cause embryonic lethality...
 
Old 04-26-2015, 05:39 AM   #220
SODERBERGD
Tessera X Tessera Fertility . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
I guess I'm just trying to understand why there is allegedly only one homozygous tessera, if, on average, 1/3 of the tessera offspring should be homozygous in a tess x tess cross. But if it doesn't cause embryonic lethality...
I thought of that also, but I'm not seeing increased infertility (non-viable embryos) from Tessera to Tessera pairings. Homozygotes having a lethal gene mutation is THE most logical explanation, but I confess that I didn't track the ratio of infertile eggs to fertile. I'll start doing that now (I've done one or two Tessera-to-Tessera pairings this year) just in case memory is not serving me well? If embryonic lethality is not a potential, what could cause there to be only one homozygote? One out of perhaps 20,000? Of course, people who don't breed their corns could have homozygotes, but essentially, "to own a corn is to breed a corn" applies to the bulk of Tessera owners? Then, this begs review of phenotypes? Lethality COULD explain why we're not seeing quantifiable phenotype rations in progeny? The reality of getting target product (Tessera) in the first breeding generation is quite an allure to breeders, so I THINK most Tessera owners are breeding theirs?

Could this ratio reality be akin to male tri-colored cats being so rare and frail?
 

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