That time of year I guess :P Segregate them?

I've had my 2nd escape in two weeks Before, I put it down to my fault in securing the tubs and feeding on day 7 after going with a 5day cycle for about a month now. The 2nd time, two days ago. Both were recaught, this 2nd time was no big deal. My Amel male was right there in between the tubs, next to two females. He was only out on a 'booty call' for < 8hrs

I really never thought the reason why they escaped was because of the season. Both were subadult males not yet 2yrs old, and neither Arrow or Lick have never been interested in getting out.

When I grabbed the Amel up, I was surprised for two reasons: That I didn't get bit(this one is known to lol) and second, that he wrapped my fingers up with real strength! Pretty uncomfortable.

Hehe, no way I thought a baby snake would be interested in finding a mate. All 3 of my older males are not really interested in eating like they usually are. I watch them and they do seem more restless than usual.

But ready to mate at 18-20 mos? Never would've thought. Makes me wish I had some older females for them. Also makes me wonder if I should segregate the females so the males can't pickup on any scent that might be in the air
Anyway, my oldest female now is a Blizzard only 18 mos/~28"/140g, so I have a couple years to find a good mate.

omni said:

I really never thought the reason why they escaped was because of the season.

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The reason they escaped was because your security measures aren't adequate. You seem pretty relaxed about it. I'd get more serious about it. Escape is a death sentence for most captive corns. My breeding-ready males and females are right next to each other in the racks in many cases. Segregation isn't the solution. Increased enclosure security is.

motives

I agree the two snakes found small openings between the lid and rim of the tubs (albeit after days of cruising), but I'm more interested in the effect of pheremones produced by epidermatoglyphics in snakes as the possible motive for the prior observed activity and lack of appetite in only my three older males. While security of containment provided opportunity (only my 3rd snake escape in 8 or 9yrs), I believe there to be an underlying motive. They only escaped after days of this activity. This is why I question the timing. I would've posted asking about subadult males regardless, after observing 30days of this sudden unusual activity that resulted in two escapes.
RE: the escapes-
I know these two pretty well now after eight mos. They are my two most laid back snakes, although Lick does bite when handled.
I was quite upset over Arrow's escape for fear of his medical condition from circumstances of his recapture. He is also my favorite...

The snakes in question display for them, atypical behavior; in that given opportunity to leave their tubs on handling days, they have up to now shown no desire to climb out on their own, making me get them out in hand first. I often let my snakes roam the room for a few mins before picking them up. This is from 8 mos. of my own notes on them, and spans 20+ handling sessions. Just so unlike these two. I'd expect this from hatchlings, having kept many of them.

The room is sealed, they can't get far (necessary after a P. cancerides escaped in rehousing, May '07, frightening my family). Arrow did climb into a fishtank stand, however. Our search for Arrow was focused on the adjoining livingroom as that is not a secure area and we thought perhaps the door was left open. We started there, blocking off everything and then searched from habitats outward. He was found ~4' from his habitat in the room where I keep them less than 72 hrs from escape.

Truthfully, I haven't changed the manner of keeping security on my snakes' tubs since getting into reptiles, having kept 3 adults for several years w/o incident. So the question arises, "Why Now?" My notes show no restlessness beyond the first few days of getting them or lack of appetite ever aside from Arrow's occasional preshed behavior. My first escapee was Crosshair in July '07. She was a hatchling and got out within two weeks. That was a real worry there. I had 4 cats in the room then.

Burghardt (1980) suggests vomeronasal olfaction as being as important for communication as vision, and most hobbyists know that snakes possess excellent sense of smell. No snake in my care can see any other snake. It is documented (Duval, Guillette and Jones, 1982:212) that pheremones, especially in a reproductive state, are exuded by capillaries between scales. These are even retained in sheds(Kubie, Cohen and Halpern, 1978). I have read on reptile forums it's not uncommon to place a female's shed in with the male prior to breeding attempts.

I'm basing my opinion on motive by research by Hobart M. Smith, David Duvall, Brent M. Graves, Richard E. Jones and David Chiszar. Citing many references, it will be an excellent start for my study along these lines and can be found at http://www.herpetology.com/1phs30.html

Before their escapes, I had noted their behaviors. Both had not yet found the opening that they later would. My request for input stems from this prior activity beginning Feb 2nd.

Believe me, I am not being trivial about their escapes. I would've likely asked about my subadult males after 30days of observing. I'm a research hobbyist first that just happens to own some snakes. That is what I do. Tarantulas have a similiar niche in my life. I have many, and study certain individuals and species. All critters in my care have dual purpose, some multi. They happen to be pets, but are also specimens of study for me. I'm planning to draw up and have a display case built for snakes, but now have some data suggesting another study, although not one I had planned. BTW, large portions of my collections were put up for adoption due to my health so I can continue my tarantula study/breeding projects and still be able to keep a couple of my snakes as just pets.

My apologies for the eyestrain if you've read this far, but it seems Dean just brushed me off, in effect saying just lock 'em up better, w/o any input on what I believe to be a behavioral anomaly with two of my corns. I'm judgemental, and sort of high-strung and sensitive to criticism, but love it or hate it, that is me.

I second that!!!!!!.....

Male corns will become markedly more active during the breeding season. They will display restless, searching behavior. If there is any weakness in their enclosure security, they will find it. Some males may display loss of appetite & feed sporadically or or not at all. Breeding wins out over food

I successfully bred 2 young male corn snakes in 2007, details below. Both were brumated & exhibited slightly restless behavior. (my 3+ yr old males exhibited a greater degree of restless behavior)

2005 1.0 amel motley hatched 8/16/05, I purchased on 3/22/06, weight was 30g on 6/06. Male reached 100g by 11/5/06 & was brumated. Weight was 110g on 2/13/07. Bred to 2 females in April 2007, fertile eggs laid.

2005 1.0 butter hatched 7/11/05, I purchased on 3/22/06, weight was 35g on 6/06. Male reached 100g by 11/5/06 & was brumated. Weight was 115 on 2/13/07. Bred to 1 female on 3/16/06, fertile eggs laid - breeding photos below.

omni said:

My apologies for the eyestrain if you've read this far, but it seems Dean just brushed me off, in effect saying just lock 'em up better, w/o any input on what I believe to be a behavioral anomaly with two of my corns. I'm judgemental, and sort of high-strung and sensitive to criticism, but love it or hate it, that is me.

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Next time you want input on a specific aspect, ask for it. It's well known that males become more active during breeding season, particularly in the presence of ovulating females. Is that the kind of confirming input you're looking for?

chuck1289 said:

I second that!!!!!!.....

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Who asked you, Chuck? If the perception is that my contribution to this thread was sub-par, then what value can we place on yours? :nope:

My male motley is in super hormonal mode right now. I can't get him to eat, I open the tub and he "leaps" out, I can't get him back into the tub from his feeding bin, he is very jumpy, cruises constantly... typical seasonal behavior. I think its a big pain in the butt if you aren't planning on breeding. :smash:

I support Dean on this one. Rather at this stage concentrate on Viv Security.
Your corns are still in my opinion too young to breed.
If you think your corns escape easily then wait for the day you do breed your corns and then have to deal with hatchlings who are the original Houdini's.
Instead of worrying about breeding behaviour, rather concentrate on Viv Security so that the day when you do have new born hatchlings you are experienced enough at Viv Security to contain them effectively.
By the way, a bit of other advice. Notice that I mentioned Viv Security 3 times which is also the golden rule for female corns to breed, 3 years, 3 feet, 300 grams in weight.

Ciao

omni said:

Also makes me wonder if I should segregate the females so the males can't pickup on any scent that might be in the air

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You could always try that, but you'd better have a really big house, or 2 for that matter. You'd think with all your research and access to studies, you'd know that any pheromone scents can travel quite a long distance. And even without any pheromones in the air, males will still be driven to go out and look for some. Don't have a study to reference or quote, but that would be called natural instinct.

I third the advice to focus on containment.

I also would say focus on more security. In 10 years with reptiles, I have never had a single escape(Knock on wood/thank god). Large rocks, Lid Clamps, Bungy Chords, even heavy boxes full of baseball cards have been implemented. Just remember if it can get its head through an opening it will find a way to get the rest of its body through!

Also, Your initial post wasn't too clear. I support Dean in that security should far outway your interest in pheremones. Once they are secured you will have plenty of time to do some research and not be hunting down missing snakes.

Agreed with Dean, as always.

And by the way, Omni, since you felt the need to criticize my reply, I have to ask how your defensive and technical response corresponds to the PM you sent me a week before your criticism. It seems that you're a bit confused as to what your role in this hobby is. Pardon me for taking you at your word. In the future I'll remember that it means nothing.

Hi, I have a request to delete a thread I started:
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63430

I am (or used to be) a research hobbyist. I was making plans to run tests on cornsnake cell tissues. Earlier today, I recaptured an escapee and had to perform some emergency tape removal. I was so shook up because I believe I caused bad vibes with my plans to run tests on my pets. My episode was His way of telling me to stop doing things better left to professionals with degrees and research labs.

The fact I asked about scale removal just yesterday now just looks so bad, like my escape and recapture episode had already happened and I asked in light of that.

It makes me sick now to think of things that really aren't my business attempting. The thread really has not been a positive contribution to this board. It may have alienated me to much of the membership. I am giving up all that I used to do for the sake of now just enjoying what is, w/o going beyond into things I have little formal training in.

While my motive was innocent quest for technical knowledge of how reptiles function, I may've been misguided in my thinking. I am not any sort of veterinarian or anyone that'd be able to influence medical knowledge. I leave that now to those whose job it is to probe science.
I just want to be a regular reptile hobbyist keeper, not something I'll never be. I need the advice and input from the members here, as I'm pretty far from expert at snakes.

If the thread remains, more people will look at it as I'm someone that would be cruel to animals, and I would be shunned and wouldn't be able to ask questions of a normal sort anymore. I'm putting that all behind me. I don't want to risk the health or safety of mine or anyone else's pets ever again. I don't want to be hated for my quest for knowledge. I'm giving that up.
So if you could do me a favor to delete the thread, that'll help me to become better in husbandry skills and maintaining my collection of corns. Not by trying to perform studies that are above my head and have little practical value to 99% of reptile owners. Leave that to docs, vets, and real academics. I don't need that distraction when I can't even keep a cornsnake from escaping.

I thank you for your time and patience w/ me. My apologies to the membership for my behavior up to this point.
~Paul S.

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