Poll: are you going to call "bloodred" anything else?

I'm not trying to rehash old arguments here, but I think the "is it a pattern" question has a clear answer of "yes" that cannot be refuted. So I'll respond.

Originally posted by Rich Z
Well, the problem I see here is that not all of us are convinced that the "Blood Red" trait is a pattern trait rather than a color trait.

Maybe you're seeing a different effect in some examples where an infusion of color is happening, but that isn't what I'm talking about here.

The first time I saw a "snow bloodred" was all the convincing I needed. Perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing here. I'm talking about something that affects the pattern in normals, charcoals, anerys, amels, and snows, among others.

If this trait is affecting a color, which color is it affecting in snow corns to make them different from snow corns not expressing it?

And based upon the well known fact that the coloration in corns changes dramatically while maturing further strengthens my opinion that this is really a case of the red (or red-orange) coloration increasing to overpower and blot out the pattern that is seen in babies and juveniles.

I don't agree with this. I have a very light pewter, pictured above. If the disappearing pattern were a result of extra pigment growing in, why is he still so light-colored? If the what you're saying is true, he would be super-dark.

If the above were true, how is it that snows expressing this pattern are hatched and immediately recognized as such? Red is not part of the equation, nor is black.

Is this an unusual occurence in corn snakes? Nope, not at all. I have Silver Queens that are losing their patterns (and they have patternless abdomens as well). I have Opals that have turned into perfectly white animals. One Snow Motley in my collection has completely lost it's pattern. Motleys and Stripes can have the pattern become very indistinct as age reduces the contrast between the pattern and ground color. And of course, Blizzards can gain or lose their pattern almost every other shed.

The fact that other genetic or nongenetic influences can mimic the phenotype doesn't invalidate an actual genetic trait. That is, some normals can look dorsally "more motley" than some motleys do, dorsally. (I can post specific examples if needed, but I know you guys have seen this happen, too.)

This doesn't invalidate Motley as a genetic trait.

Patternless (full or partial) abdomens? Heck I see that in Motley, Striped, Silver Queens, Upper Keys, Milk Snake Phase and Blood Reds. So what does that mean? Beats me.

Again, this applies to motleys...

What do you call a Diffuse Corn that does not lose all of it's pattern?

What do you call a doctor who graduated last in his class? Doctor.

What do you call a motley corn that doesn't have circles down the back? A Motley.

What do you call a Diffuse Corn that does not lose all of it's pattern? Diffused.

Protecting the fragile minds of newbies should not be the goal of any naming convention for the corns, I believe.

I think there's a difference between necessary complication and unnecessary complication. Genetics is what it is. Names have to be applied so we can identify morphs. These are necessary complications.

But using the name "nothing gets redder than this" for what is inarguably a pattern is, IMO, an unnecessary complication. Teaching people what the different morphs are, while using the term "blood red" for a pattern, is like trying to teach someone math when 3 and 7 both have the same exact name and symbol.

If someone cannot grasp the concept of variation in any given cultivar of the corn snake, then they are lost anyway with all of this. Variation is the rule, not the exception, so people just have to understand this and accept it.

Just a few lines up you were using this as an argument that a pattern trait should not be named.


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As for the "dial" and "corn" examples, these are not applicable. "Dial" has no other meaning in telephones...

It is not reasonable to expect "Apple Computer Store" to sell apples.

It IS reasonable to expect "Apple Fruit Store" to sell apples.

Like many, I'm all for a better name if its accuracy of description just glares at us. I just haven't heard it yet and with all the educated input on this forum, I think it would have been suggested if it was out there.

This simply is not a realistic expectation.

"Diffused" describes the pattern of as many of these animals as "butter" describes the color of amel caramels. It gives a good general idea of what to expect. There is no perfect name, it is never expected in other morphs, but now all of a sudden it is expected. I don't buy it.

The other option, if you believe there's no way any word will ever fit, is to use a "nonsense" word. Motley doesn't describe a pattern or a color. Nobody can ever refute the use of Motley for that pattern because there's no inherent "pattern" meaning, so it means whatever pattern we say it means.

Call it Quijybo, Trundlefart, or Chevrolet for all I care. Those things have no implied meaning, so they will mean exactly what you say they mean.

There is no perfect name, it is never expected in other morphs, but now all of a sudden it is expected. I don't buy it.

I don't buy it either, that's why Bloodred works for me.

I don't think changing the name will stop newbies from getting cornfused and I definately don't think it will stop people from getting ripped off. I also don't believe that explaining to a person new to the hobby what a diffuse corn is will take any less time than explaining what a bloodred is. Except perhaps having to add a short little "the reason why they are called bloodred is because the original animals displaying this pattern were very red". Adding that little extra disclaimer is a lot easier than changing the name through out the entire herp community.

I'm not trying to rehash old arguments here, but I think the "is it a pattern" question has a clear answer of "yes" that cannot be refuted.

Just a quick question about this statement before I head off to bed....

Says who?

Snow bloods, when they hatch, are the same exact color as regular snows, yet they are instantly recognizable as bloodreds.

How is that not a pattern trait?

Snow Bloods? Snow Bloodreds? Does anybody not know what they are? Are they red? NO. If you breed them to a Bloodred, will they produce Bloodreds? YES

It seems to be working perfectly fine. It is not broken! The name Snow Bloods/Bloodreds has character, power, history, and tradition.

Defused Snow Corn Snake sounds like a snow flake on a hot skillet and silly.

I have never seen a Snow Blood. Does anybody have a picture they can post?

While I like "diffuse" better than "bloodred", I like either "diffuse pattern" or "bloodred pattern" still better.

Hey Joe, page 5 at VMS Herp has a picture of a snow bloodred. Though the full body shot is not convincing, the closeup is a bit more.

I am probably going to be the only person in the country that is going to do this, and since I do not have a large number of animals for sale each year, it will NOT matter in the long run. However, I am going to call any animal I produce "episkiastic," if it has the classic pattern that has been associated heretofore with homozygous bloodreds.

Those "epis" that are red, will be bloodreds, and those that are also homozygous for charcoal will be pewters. And, if any other combinations are given their own names, they will be added to my list.

BUT ... just because we have, as an industry, have not yet addressed the fact that there are two separate issues at play here, that does not mean I am going to continue not to do so. Motley corns are defined in TWO ways ... by their pattern AND by their coloration. Ghost Motlies are called "pastels" and we all know what is meant. I see no difference here in the issue of episkiastism.

Bloodreds, pewters, caramel bloods, lavender bloods, etc. -- They all look different and have many differences in breeding possiblities. However, they all share ONE common aspect: Their pattern. I (and again, I may be the ONLY one!) am calling that pattern "episkiastic."

That name has three factors going for it:

1) It has precedent [we already use Greek terms in other morphs]
2) It accurately describes what is taking place in relation to the color, regardless of coloration issues are involved
3) It simply CANNOT be confused with any other morph [Yes, there are other pattern mutations that have similar effects, but pewter is a morph without red in the mix, does that make "anerythrism" null and void? Hardly.]

If no one ever says that word in realtion to this pattern other than me, that's fine. This was never about me anyway. But I refuse to say to myself "I know this name we're using is completely messed up, but we've done it so long that I'm just going to keep it."

I challenge everyone here to go do a search on all of the threads of newbies asking if bloodred is an inheritable "gene." See how many times so many of us have had to explain that the answer to that question is both "Yes" and "No." Do you really think that setting forth one term and saying " 'THIS' describes the pattern, it doesn't change bloodred as a name, but it describes the pattern common to all bloodreds," do you really think that this is just too much for people to understand? If they could not understand that, how are you EVER going to explain bloodred as a trait at all?

I am a big NOBODY in the cornsnake world, so I know I don't have any weight at all on this matter. However, it seems to me that ignoring a real issue never does anything but guarantee that it will have to be addressed later on.

Regardless, I am selling my offspring as "episkiastics" of various color combinations, bloodred and petwers being among them.

Darin,
One Question, of the normal epis that will become Bloodreds, what will you call them before the red comes in? How will you know if they will become red enough to be Bloodreds? And what scale will you use to measure the amount of red that is needed to be a Bloodred?

OOPS! That's more then one, isn't it?

P.S.
Here's a scenario I see coming.....I have Bloodred hatchlings on my table at a show. Someone comes by and says "OH, I was looking for an epi..." I say "Wait a minute" and pull out a clutch mate from under my table marked "Epi" (OOPS, that one's marked Defused, grab the other one) and make the sale.