Notices |
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
|
The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
03-22-2012, 01:18 PM
|
#31
|
|
The originator - Mike Shiver had told Don that he used a "grey snow" to start the Ultra line. Due to the admission of the original breeder to crossing rat into the line, Don has decided to label all derivatives of this line thusly. I suppose it's up to the individual if you 'want' to believe the breeder or not. I personally feel that it is mute as this point.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 01:51 PM
|
#32
|
|
How many tens of generations are we away from the grey rat, anyway? Does it even matter? Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 02:18 PM
|
#33
|
|
There seems to be a whole lot of misinformation and Chinese whispers about what Mike Shivers did or didn't say he has been quoted as saying he made two crosses one was corn x white oaks phase grey rat,and also a corn x corn,and couldn't remember which cross resulted in the Ultra gene.
It has also been said that he was very disenfranchised with the American Corn snake Hobby to the point where he threw his PC or records or whatever in a lake so no one would ever know.
Don seems to have chosen to take a conservative approach ( understandably ) to protect his reputation should they eventually be discovered to be of hybrid origin and to label them as such.
The other obvious problem is that they have now been around for some time and have been crossed back into corns many many times so they must now be around 99.9% corn,anyone who knows nothing of these theories or hasn't done the research probably just isn't bothered.
My own Ultra/Ultramel progeny are labelled as just that Ultra/Ultramel none show any hybrid markers and I'm always more than happy to discuss this and the known ancestry of my lines and usually my purchasers are just happy to have a healthy beautiful looking new corn.
Almost every morph produced seems to take some stick about whether or not it's a hybrid or not and produce similar conversations and posts on forums,to me it's a case of if you like it dip your toe and acknowledge the facts first and the theories later,if you do breed and sell the off spring label them as Ultra/Ultramel and be open about your knowledge and understanding of the situation and your lines it's then up to the buyer to make their choice.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 02:25 PM
|
#34
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci
Does it even matter?
|
Yes! for me and a ton of other breeders here in europe and hopefully also in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci
Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?
|
No, but does that fact make ultra and stuff more pure than before?
I personally would NOT buy a corn which has ultra in its background. I don't care if it's one or ten generations back in the past - I don't want them. Meanwhile it is becoming harder and harder to buy an amel, caramel, butter or whatever which are for sure not ultra related. Everybody can breed, keep and create ultra morphs, no problem, but please please please label them as ultra related. Not only the ultra stuff but also the NONultra byproducts like butters, fires, amels, etc.
If all breeders make an exeption for ultra (of course, most did and do it), we all could sell also "real" hybrids without labeling them as such. That wouldn't make a difference....who wants that? Not me! I'm sure I'm not the only one .
It is pretty disturbing that 90% of the breeders/keepers make a big exeption for ultra. Since I heard for the first time of Ultra, I heard those hybrid rumors as often as I've never heard of any other morph - is it only the fact it acts codom to amel that anybody hikes his shoulders or why is this the common practice?
Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 05:51 PM
|
#35
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by asnakecalled?
i don't think it has yet but how would we know some people are saying there pure and others have labeled them as gray rat crosses so my question is, i've just bread my pair of golddusts motley het anery the babys will be Gold Dust Motley, Ultra Caramel Motley, Butter Motley, Xanthic Snow Motley, Ultramel Anery Caramel Motley and Ultra Caramel Anery Motley.
so what do i sell the babys as are they corns or are they hybrids or are they possible hybrids. and if they are hybrids 2 of them dont carry the ultra gene so are they hybrids ?
someone please help because i'm at a loss and i'm kind of new to breeding this has confused me and i don't want it to confuse other new breeders
|
Good luck seperating the ultramel anery caramels from the ultra anery caramels and caramel snow in your potential clutch.
I produced my 1st Xanthic snows in 2006 with out any ultra/ ultramel connection. That line continues today.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 05:57 PM
|
#36
|
|
(I just asked the questions, I didn't state my position...)
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 06:26 PM
|
#37
|
|
I can't believe how these genetics threads have turned out in the couple months... I was Impressed with most but like this one I just shake my head, out of all the problems/questions/lies/truths to bring up in the corn snake community why bring back ultra which I remember was case closed years ago. I respect Don. but however labeling them as hybrids now when most breeders will not join this ban wagon, feels like beating a dead horse to me. There is much to be discovered with some of the genes we have out now that hasn't gotten the good scrutiny they deserve. I am in favor of moving forward not back.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 06:27 PM
|
#38
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGERcream
I personally would NOT buy a corn which has ultra in its background. I don't care if it's one or ten generations back in the past - I don't want them. Meanwhile it is becoming harder and harder to buy an amel, caramel, butter or whatever which are for sure not ultra related. Everybody can breed, keep and create ultra morphs, no problem, but please please please label them as ultra related. Not only the ultra stuff but also the NONultra byproducts like butters, fires, amels, etc.
If all breeders make an exeption for ultra (of course, most did and do it), we all could sell also "real" hybrids without labeling them as such. That wouldn't make a difference....who wants that? Not me! I'm sure I'm not the only one .
It is pretty disturbing that 90% of the breeders/keepers make a big exeption for ultra. Since I heard for the first time of Ultra, I heard those hybrid rumors as often as I've never heard of any other morph - is it only the fact it acts codom to amel that anybody hikes his shoulders or why is this the common practice?
Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party.
|
well said but i guess ill have to keep working with them until i find out one way or another, but label every thing as ultra based and let people make there own mind up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Tuttle
Good luck seperating the ultramel anery caramels from the ultra anery caramels and caramel snow in your potential clutch.
|
thanks for the good look it was near impossible in the clutch last year that's why i ended up buying the adults when the person who bread them first could not decide and gave up.
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 07:45 PM
|
#39
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci
How many tens of generations are we away from the grey rat, anyway? Does it even matter? Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?
|
So, back when Rosy Corns were P. g. rosaceae, if they were bred with P. g. g., then those offspring would have been hybrids, but now that Rosy has been re-taxonomized and is a P. g. g., it is okay to breed them together.
So, an old cross would be hybrid stock, but a new cross would not be.
Alternately, P. g. slowinski, now, if bred to P. g. g. , produces hybrids, but 15 years ago when it was still a P. g. g., the breedings of that with other P. g. g. would not be hybrids.
Right?
|
|
|
03-22-2012, 08:15 PM
|
#40
|
|
Seems like in Europe they only want pure bred snakes, just like they only wanted pure bred humans in the 1940's
Maybe in 70 or so more years they will be more tolerant?
|
|
|
Join
now to reply to this thread or open new ones
for your questions & comments! Cornsnakes.com
is the largest online community dedicated to cornsnakes . Registration is open to everyone and FREE.
Click Here to Register!
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:20 PM.
|
else>
|