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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:22 PM   #61
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGERcream View Post
Yes! for me and a ton of other breeders here in europe and hopefully also in the US.

Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party.
Those beginners do not care, and you won't buy from them I'm sure, so why bother so much about it? No snake gets hurt from the above, no people either so what is exactly the problem you have with it? Just the idea that in a population you don't buy from a couple of rat snake genes are spread through it? I guess you cannot sleep then thinking about all the accidental hybrid pairings that occur at noobie homes, and which they sell as corns to other noobs.... did you know that many of them don't even have an idea what sort of snake they have? Over here in Holland I see ads from time to time stating 'I am selling my constricting snake'.

Sorry for my hint of sarcasm but I just do not get why people are bothered so much by what others do if nobody gets harmed. Of course someone like the OP might be a little upset if he has decided he wants to breed as pure corns as possible and finds out that ultra's came from a hybrid cross and might carry some rat snake genes. I do think however he will get over it and will just get rid of the 'contaminated' snakes or realise that meanwhile any ultra offspring is most probably as pure as the average other morph. The latter is why most breeders do not care to label them as hybrids I think. Who cares about it, knows about it anyway. And.... meanwhile some ultra off spring might ass well not carry any rat snake gene anymore, so labeling it 'hybrid' would be unfair
 
Old 03-23-2012, 05:41 PM   #62
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerards View Post
That's what someone says when they don't want people thinking about what they say. This is the same old defense every time this subject comes up that people defending the hybrids they make try and use. The problem is they don't want to have a intelligent conversation because this is what they do, why change, it's already done. The excuse is, if don't do it, someone else will. It's pure laziness and greed.
Am I right if you think that people who defend making hybrids do not dare to discuss that in public? If so, I might be the rare exception then. Please explain to me why it is such a problem that people make hybrids? You won't buy from anyone that is not labeled as a thrustworthy breeder of pure snake in your opinion, so you do not have to be afraid of these hybrid surprises, right? The same goes for your 100% pure bred snakes when you sell them I guess? You won't sell them to not trustworthy breeders either, right? Why care about someone elses garden if you can keep yours clean? It is not like those evil hibrids go out to get into your snake room and contaminate your snakes, right?
 
Old 03-23-2012, 05:56 PM   #63
Carinata
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerards View Post
That's what someone says when they don't want people thinking about what they say. This is the same old defense every time this subject comes up that people defending the hybrids they make try and use. The problem is they don't want to have a intelligent conversation because this is what they do, why change, it's already done. The excuse is, if don't do it, someone else will. It's pure laziness and greed.
That's what people do when they want to speak one on one with someone. I've done it and so have many others when discussions get too heats and you're trying to talk to someone and everyone else wants to either bash you or keep throwing they're 2 cents in when you're talking with a certain person. It helps keep things civil IMO.
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:36 PM   #64
Gerards
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeAround View Post
Am I right if you think that people who defend making hybrids do not dare to discuss that in public? If so, I might be the rare exception then. Please explain to me why it is such a problem that people make hybrids? You won't buy from anyone that is not labeled as a thrustworthy breeder of pure snake in your opinion, so you do not have to be afraid of these hybrid surprises, right? The same goes for your 100% pure bred snakes when you sell them I guess? You won't sell them to not trustworthy breeders either, right? Why care about someone elses garden if you can keep yours clean? It is not like those evil hibrids go out to get into your snake room and contaminate your snakes, right?
Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:38 PM   #65
Carinata
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerards View Post
Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.
What's wrong with making money?
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #66
Gerards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinata View Post
What's wrong with making money?
Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:43 PM   #67
Carinata
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerards View Post
Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?
Nope. I just think too many people in the hobby think making money is exploiting animals.
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:46 PM   #68
Gerards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinata View Post
Nope. I just think too many people in the hobby think making money is exploiting animals.
I do not think that at all, as long as they are kept correctly.
 
Old 03-23-2012, 06:49 PM   #69
DragonsDenSerpents
I have one ultra/ultramel breeder in my small collection. Will I be getting rid of him? No. Dexter is a beautiful snake and as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid. If there is any grey rat snake in him, it's so far diluted that it's not an issue. My dog, for example, is a Catahoula. Sighthound was bred into the breed when it was created, but is it considered a sighthound? No, it's still classified as herding, and a "pure" breed. I do label all my offspring with what the parents were (and hets) and the grandparents if I know them. I still am attempting to produce golddust stripes this season because I find them to be stunning snakes. Any butters/amels/etc that will be produced along with golddust will be labeled as having an ultramel parent, but I don't really see what the fuss is about.
 
Old 03-23-2012, 07:01 PM   #70
Gerards
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonsDenSerpents View Post
I have one ultra/ultramel breeder in my small collection. Will I be getting rid of him? No. Dexter is a beautiful snake and as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid. If there is any grey rat snake in him, it's so far diluted that it's not an issue. My dog, for example, is a Catahoula. Sighthound was bred into the breed when it was created, but is it considered a sighthound? No, it's still classified as herding, and a "pure" breed. I do label all my offspring with what the parents were (and hets) and the grandparents if I know them. I still am attempting to produce golddust stripes this season because I find them to be stunning snakes. Any butters/amels/etc that will be produced along with golddust will be labeled as having an ultramel parent, but I don't really see what the fuss is about.
That's fine, you can justify towards your needs. That's what everyone does and that's the problem. You said "as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid". You justify it to yourself and that's your right. If it's broke why try and fix it, right?
 

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