stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

I'm not really justifying anything as just stating my opinion on the subject. From my understanding, there's no concrete evidence either way. The creator said one was from a corn x corn pair and the other was from a corn x grey rat pair, but he doesn't remember which was which. Could they be hybrids? Sure, they could. It's my opinion that they're not or at least not to a point where it really matters, just as in my dog example above.

Not sure where your hostility is coming from. I will label all my offspring as far back as I know of - that's a big reason why I registered with the ACR. I have always labeled accurately as it is important to me and will continue to do so. You can choose not to purchase ultra/ultramel morphs and that is fine - it's your decision. Just as it is my decision to produce them.

Originally Posted by Gerards

Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?

It's fine if you produce the methamphetamine and distribute it Gerard, ...it's someone else's fault that it gets into the Elementary school.........


.....sarcasm folks!, but still a great analogy

Anyway, like Gerard stated, he and I are not worried in the slightest bit about our own personal collections, or afraid of not having sources for anything we would ever want to own or work with, it's all the other collections out there and the future hobbyists we are trying to look out for who do not know any better and. I see bogus stuff on a very daily basis, so it's not like I am dreaming this stuff up. I would like people in the future to not have to resort to going to a zoo or a museum, or have to go out and find their own wild snakes to be able to enjoy looking at and owning an authentic species or subspecies of snake one day. It is extremely alarming to me from what I have seen over the years.

I know where to get all the real types of snakes I could ever possibly want, but a huge majority of the hobby solely depends on someone else's word what something is that they buy and later sell, and THAT is the entire problem that gets constantly perpetuated over, and over, and over again.

"high horse"?...no!,........looking out for others and caring about having authentic snakes for the hobby's future?,......most definitely!!

Here's a closing thought.......if crosses and hybrids were not done all the time on such an epic scale, we wouldn't even be having this little issue in the first place, now would we?


~Doug

Originally Posted by Gerards

Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.

So, anybody who does not want to pursue the same goals as you, being breeding pure species, is lazy, greedy, not educated enough? People have been hurt for less rude opnions than that... The fact that you think the only good way to breed is to breed pure, does not make other people lazy, greedy, uneducated. I do breed some hybrids and I am none of these. I have read tons of info, I know about genetics and I loose money on breeding them. The lazy part of hybrid breeding I cannot understand... hybrids poop and eat as much as pure species. Breeding interesting hybrids takes the same amount of time and years...

I still do not see why what those lazy, greedy people do interfere with your goals? You can still breed pure species and enjoy the hobby as you like it and establish a pure collection together with people who think alike. It is not like if someones breeds a hybrid with your pure animal, your line is ruined. Your personal animals and all their off spring are still as pure as they were before the hybrid breeding. Why is the existence of a muddy pool of genes so threatening for you? What is gonna go wrong? Are they gonna wipe your pure animals out? Are they gonna invade your collection? I know many purist claim they want to preserve rare species, yet itis not allowed to just free some of your cb snakes into the wild. Only special programs can be used as a source for that. Those programs won't be harmed by any hybrid in people's collection. Nor can we all participate in those projects.

So, again I ask you, what is so threatening about the existence of a muddy population? Who is gonna be hurt/damaged? Can you give me a proper argument besides that it is just bad. Why is it bad besides that one can also breed pure species? That is a lame arguement. One could also just not breed or keep snakes....

EDIT: I read Doug's post after this post, so skip the part about your personal collection, I understand you are not afraid about it.

Originally Posted by asnakecalled?

ok so i'm still confused are they or are not hybrids because on ians vivarium they are getting labeled as corn x gray rat snake - http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/hybrids/ultra/

and on the corn snake they are getting classed as pure corn snake -
http://thecornsnake.com/morph-corn-s...mel-corn-snake

am i just reading to much into this should they just be labeled as ultra

Ian's is incorrect,
The original White Oak Phase of Gray Ratsnake Ultra gene came from A White Oak Phase Gray Ratsnake. From an INDIVIDUAL. To suggest that ALL gray ratsnakes carry the Ultra gene is like suggesting any one wild corn snake is carrying ALL the recessive color genes. I am guessing you still have not read and comprehended/ absorbed the info in the link in post #6, ON The First Thread Of This Week, Here. <--click it. Take a few days so you do not miss anything. I am now stepping out of this thread. I have my own homework to do. Also, at the top of a page here is a link to Search.

To find archived threads about ultra, Google is handy: <---CLICK IT

Originally Posted by DMong

It's fine if you produce the methamphetamine and distribute it Gerard, ...it's someone else's fault that it gets into the Elementary school.........


.....sarcasm folks!, but still a great analogy

Anyway, like Gerard stated, he and I are not worried in the slightest bit about our own personal collections, or afraid of not having sources for anything we would ever want to own or work with, it's all the other collections out there and the future hobbyists we are trying to look out for who do not know any better and. I see bogus stuff on a very daily basis, so it's not like I am dreaming this stuff up. I would like people in the future to not have to resort to going to a zoo or a museum, or have to go out and find their own wild snakes to be able to enjoy looking at and owning an authentic species or subspecies of snake one day. It is extremely alarming to me from what I have seen over the years.

I know where to get all the real types of snakes I could ever possibly want, but a huge majority of the hobby solely depends on someone else's word what something is that they buy and later sell, and THAT is the entire problem that gets constantly perpetuated over, and over, and over again.

"high horse"?...no!,........looking out for others and caring about having authentic snakes for the hobby's future?,......most definitely!!

Here's a closing thought.......if crosses and hybrids were not done all the time on such an epic scale, we wouldn't even be having this little issue in the first place, now would we?


~Doug

So, you do your part to build a population for people who do want to have pure snakes, together with some other purists, whilst others who care less about it, might unknowingly have species that are not 100% what they are said to be? I still do not see the true poblem to begin with.... if most people would want absolutely 100% pure species, they would all come to breeders like you, but they apparently do not. If, in the future, a lack of pure species arises, the market will change according to that. The whole situation with the uncertainty about pureness exists BECAUSE most people care less about it than you do. So for them, there is no problem. Since you know where to get pure species, you do not have a problem either. Hence, there is no problem for anyone, except for you, worrying about other people's market of snakes. I'm sorry, but if not enough people are not gonna be like you, their market is not gonna be like you want it to be. If enough people will in the future, they are gonna come to you and your fellow purists and the muddy market is gonna be wiped out and replaced by a pure species market.

What seems to be mistaken from this whole discussion is that the idea of species is an artificial construct. How do you even determine what's a "pure" corn? There is no standard corn that is used to judge al others against.

Given these points, I find this whole discussion (and the thousands of others like it) just laughable.

Originally Posted by SnakeAround

So, anybody who does not want to pursue the same goals as you, being breeding pure species, is lazy, greedy, not educated enough? People have been hurt for less rude opnions than that... The fact that you think the only good way to breed is to breed pure, does not make other people lazy, greedy, uneducated. I do breed some hybrids and I am none of these. I have read tons of info, I know about genetics and I loose money on breeding them.

I still do not see why what those lazy, greedy people do interfere with your goals? You can still breed pure species and enjoy the hobby as you like it and establish a pure collection together with people who think alike. It is not like if someones breeds a hybrid with your pure animal, your line is ruined. Your personal animals and all their off spring are still as pure as they were before the hybrid breeding. Why is the existence of a muddy pool of genes so threatening for you? What is gonna go wrong? Are they gonna wipe your pure animals out? Are they gonna invade your collection? I know many purist claim they want to preserve rare species, yet itis not allowed to just free some of your cb snakes into the wild. Only special programs can be used as a source for that. Those programs won't be harmed by any hybrid in people's collection.

So, again I ask you, what is so threatening about the existence of a muddy population? Who is gonna be hurt/damaged? Can you give me a proper argument besides that it is just bad. Why is it bad besides that one can also breed pure species? That is a lame arguement. One could also just not breed or keep snakes....

You are thinking about you and me only. What about 20 years from now? How many new people will be getting into snaked? I'm sorry you can't understand reason, it's pretty simple. It took a lot of work to develop all the species and morphs in captivity. I guess that doesn't matter, its to easy to understand.

Originally Posted by snakepunk

What seems to be mistaken from this whole discussion is that the idea of species is an artificial construct. How do you even determine what's a "pure" corn? There is no standard corn that is used to judge al others against.

Given these points, I find this whole discussion (and the thousands of others like it) just laughable.

Ahhhhhh!!!, a person of sound science, hey???. please tell me of your wordly wisdom would you??

See, when a corn is tossed in with a Pueblan milk x Cal. king on purpose, I KNOW that isn't a "pure" corn standard. I'm smart like that.

Let's add some more grease to the tire treads so we can "spin the wheels" some more here, shall we??..HAHAHA!!!


Anyway, yes,..."laughable" for darn sure........


~Doug

No I am not thinking about you and me only. I do understand that you do not like it the idea that the work of you and other people building the hobby might be destroyed. Yet, that does not make it a problem for others per se, just for you and people who think like you, which are not the majority. It is a personal opinion that it is a problem, without any proper arguements that make clear why we should think it is a problem. Saying it is too easy to understand is so easy.... you wanted a proper discussion, so I expected some proper arguements, I guess that is too much to ask.

Who says in the year 2032 anything changed in the snake breeding world? Most probably there will still be some pure breeders and a majority of people who care about it but not to the level you do and another minority who just do not give a damn and are lazy, on educated and greedy. If not, the market will have changed accordingly, if the purists keep on breeding pure stock, which they are able to protect from muddy genes. If the hobby involves into more muddy stock, it is what people want... still, no problem.

People's taste and goals changes through time, that does not make it a problem. Many peopel prefer cereals now for breakfast instead of good old sliced bread. They eat exotic meals instead of local dishes, is that a porblem? Well, if you own a bakery or grow local vegetables you might consider adjusting your activities, yet it is not a problem...

And what about calling hybrid breeders lazy/greedy/uneducated? I hope you are not avoiding that element of the discussion with someone who belongs to this group? It might be interesting!

and, that folks, explains why a Keys looks just like an Alabama or an Okeetee cornsnake...
Kinda makes one wonder about why all wild cornsnakes aren't the color of the new dominant colors Toffee & Buf...