Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

jkgeorge said:

If a locally endemic population of snakes existed in your area would you release an invasive species to improve the looks of the native snakes? Of course not. It would be unethical and not ecologically sound. We have to start looking at our hobby the same way we look at the natural world. With unsound practices we CAN essentially extirpate a species from our hobby. This idea of "I'm making the most visually appealing snake, to hell with the consequences" is very troubling. We have to start being conservation minded within our hobby or else our hobby won't be sustainable.

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Why do we have to do that jkgeorge? That might be your view and goal, but as you say, hobby is not nature. If we would all breed hybrids, we would still have a sustainable hobby, only not the way you want it to be. Sorry, but your statement is an opinion, nothing more. I think keeping snakes in cages is more unethical to begin with than breeding hybrids.

If everyone hybridizes their corns then how is the corn snake hobby sustainable?
Of course it's just my opinion and everyone can feel free to disagree, but isn't it best to err on the side of caution until we can figure out what sorry of repercussions our actions have?

jkgeorge said:

If everyone hybridizes their corns then how is the corn snake hobby sustainable?
Of course it's just my opinion and everyone can feel free to disagree, but isn't it best to err on the side of caution until we can figure out what sorry of repercussions our actions have?

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I mean snake hobby in general. But if the people whom want to have pure corns, breed pure corns together, they can sustain their version of the hobby, no problemo. I'm pretty sure there are enough people whom are willing to breed 'pure' corns to have a nice gene pool. I don't get why many breeders whom are against hybrids are so concerned about a population of snakes they can avoid and why some are upset by the idea that other people whom care less themselves, might get a 96% pure corn instead of a pure one without knowing (which still can be 96% pure but are bred by purists whom have not DNA tested their pure snakes, yet consider them pure).

Very well said SnakeAround. The fear of not having pure corn snakes for those that want pure specimens is legitimate in that it is a fear some have. This fear can be rectified by dna testing breeding stock after a determination is made to determine which specimens are in fact pure. Keeping a pedigree going back multiple generations eventually will give even more weight to the claim that those breeding pure specimens are in fact still doing so. The longer the dna proven pedigree the longer the proof. Problem solved. Those hybridizing can do the same or they can opt to not care and simply label them hybrids as those seeking hybrids may not be so keen to prove exact lineage, but then again they may want just as meticulous records of DNA pedigrees to give weight to their efforts. The bottom line, the more you spend to prove you lineage is exactly as you say it is the more money you are going to be able to charge for your snakes. Were talking about dna testing breeders only. Those wishing to breed progeny from breeders can simply pay for the dna test for those they are willing to breed with. One could also offer an option of buying snakes with and without pedigree information or dna testing. Those with the pedigree cost more and those with dna testing already done could charge for that dna test before sale or simply have the new owner/breeder register and test the snakes dna in question before breeding. If you want to compete with the big dogs then sometimes you have to do the same thing that big dog breeders do... i.e. dna testing. If your satisfied with not knowing what a snakes pedigree may be...then by all means take someone elses word for it and then wonder where this new strange mutation/gene popped up then that is another choice as well. One thing is for certain, there is room for hybrids and there is room for pure snakes. One can always question any snake that DNA testing is not done on however.

SnakeAround said:

I think keeping snakes in cages is more unethical to begin with than breeding hybrids.

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You have interesting ethics.

SnakeAround said:

I think keeping snakes in cages is more unethical to begin with than breeding hybrids.

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Then why do you keep them if you think it's unethical?

CarpeSerpenis, can we see pics of your collection?

SnakeAround said:

I think keeping snakes in cages is more unethical to begin with than breeding hybrids.

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Chip said:

You have interesting ethics.

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BloodyBaroness said:

Then why do you keep them if you think it's unethical?

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Barbara, I just have to ask...do you think keeping snakes in cages is unethical overall? Or just keeping snakes co habbed in small cages under constant stress WHICH YOU HAVE ACTUALLY ADVOCATED IN THE PAST???
In every single co habbing thread, there you were defending the practice. Has something changed?

I think what barbara meant is that even just keeping snakes is more ethically arguable than breeding hybrids - not that she herself things it's morally wrong ^^

thinks* ... I should really get used to the fact that I don't have an edit button here

How responsibly keeping something is less ethical than keeping it, and not only breeding it, but to a foreign species -is beyond me. Hybrid people have said corns and kings don't usually breed willingly. Bait and switch, taping the king's mouth closed, tricks like that are usually necessary.

I personally see creating a hybrid for a pet or a pure corn for a pet as equal as both the pet version and the hybrid version would not occur in nature in the form or morph that we generally see in top end morphs. The fear of what hybrids will do to the pure snake gene pool in the hobby is an legitimate as the desire to have pure corn snakes is in and of itself. The real issue that I am seeing however, is simply that there is a desire to keep pure corns pure with no dna testing and thus we are left simply with the word of the breeder or in the case of wild caught corn snakes those that find them. If dna testing were employed then this would give credence to any breeder selling their snakes so long as an actual agreement on what is a pure specimen was first agreed upon. Dna testing would also prove beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the parents of a snake were indeed the parents one states they are. In this manner, one could create a very nice long pedigree in short time proving their breeding attempts were all legitimate so to speak. A dominant gene like Tessera simply does not appear as a recessive trait. It is dominate so it must appear in a wild caught specimen or else one could argue that it is a mutated gene... the first of its kind if it resulted from a breeding of two corns. If the later is the case, dna testing would prove it out beyond a reasonable doubt. If however it was from a wild caught specimen one would only have the one specimen and then one has to look at what other specimens might have gone into the mix so to speak. Keeping snakes in cages or selectively breeding them is as ethical as breeding hybrids in my book as neither occurs in nature. If you want to see something in nature practice viewing snakes in nature and letting them go in the same spot you captured them.

I see things as ridiculously simple where it comes to hybrids or pure corns. If you want to keep pure corns... first establish what a pure corn is. Then, dna test your corn. Only breed with others that have established the same guidelines that you have and have also dna tested their pure corn snakes. The kicker here is you only have to test your breeding snakes. The parents dna is on file for all breeders and thus if anyone wants to prove they have stock from such parents they can pay for their own dna testing. Beyond that, it is still the same old game of assuming the breeder is on the up and up about the pairing. Those that create hybrids will not have the same pedigree or be able to prove their pedigree with dna unless of course they admit hybrid dna into their pedigree. Problem solved. Those that want to simply breed beautiful snakes with hybrid dna are free to do so and develop elaborate dna pedigrees if they so desire and so too can those that want to keep their lines pure. All the rest can simply be puppy mills or corn snake mills without papers so to speak.

Are these tests even available to the general public?????

http://www.theriondna.com/pdf/pets.pdf
The simple answer is yes.

The truthful answer is no. That place can tell you if a certain animal is the baby daddy, but can't do NEARLY what we are hoping to accomplish here. Best I can tell, DNA isn't mapped in a single snake species. I would wager corns will be one of the first, though. This guy has done some DNA genetic marker research: http://www.life.illinois.edu/pjw/snake.htm, but I haven't found much more on Google. Heck, Americans spend TONS on our dogs annually, and the DNA breed results for those have proven to be all over the place for known pure breeds. I think we are a LONG way from it in pet snakes.

The truthful answer is yes! If you agree that a certain corn is pure...i.e. you have determined that this is a corn snake of pure origin and others are in agreement... then yes, you can prove parentage. I'm not talking about breed tests. I am simply talking about parentage testing for those that the experts agree are pure. The rest is simply keeping tabs via dna testing to prove no outside influence. So, lets reiterate, 1st... determine what a pure corn snake is. Second, test the corn snakes dna that is not in question as to its purity. 3rd, only breed known pure corns dna tested to other pure corns. The onus is still on the breeder to determine what to accept as pure however.

Good lord. Are you SERIOUSLY saying there is a DNA test that can prove that a certain corn in my collection is pure? That is what Jkgeorge is asking.

Let me quote myself again for you Chip as you missed it the first time. "So, lets reiterate, 1st... determine what a pure corn snake is. Second, test the corn snakes dna that is not in question as to its purity. 3rd, only breed known pure corns dna tested to other pure corns. The onus is still on the breeder to determine what to accept as pure however."

JKgeorge was asking if dna testing was available to the general public.
I answered, Yes. Why? Because the answer is yes to his question. As for what I am saying, I have been saying it over and over... not sure how to rephrase it so you can understand it any better.

Missed it that time too, I guess. Oh, you're full of hot gas, and just saying that a thing called DNA testing exists. Carry on.