Yellow Okeetee?

Virago said:

I don't know if anyone has said this yet but I was flippig through the manual today and on page 99 there's a very yellow corn with black borders. What do you think?

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they look similar.

hers a pic of a caramel its probably a mix of caramel and anery A

OMG
that is a VERY pretty looking corn.
I wish that I could find a snake like that in the wild too.

Best of luck with her.
Hope that she is really genetical and can prove out to be a different trait than just a 'normal' looking caramel.

All those weird/nice looking corns have to be females.....like this one and Frank's 'Piebald' corn......

Anyways best of luck!

What a gorgeous animal...
Absolutely beautiful.

breed it 2

I would breed it to a hypo ao amel :twoguns:

Oops!!

Hahaha I feel dumb!! I put a post up today saying that I found the picture of BlueKing's snake on Kingsnake.com to see what everyone thought. Only to find out I'm a couple months too late. Wow... really interesting stuff!! She is a gorgeous animal!! I can't wait to see how her hatchlings turn out!!


Thanks Chris (CKA) for giving me the heads up on this thread!!

stephen said:

I would breed it to a hypo ao amel :twoguns:

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What? How does that make any sense?

The thought is that the snake is either a wild caramel, or a new line of caramel. Wouldn't it make the most sense to either a) breed it to a normal from the same area to establish a locality, or b) breed it to a caramel to test it against the hypothesis that it is in fact a caramel variety?

Where does hypo or amel come into play here?

Well, it appears the owner has two choices to pick from for breeding that animal:

1. Try to breed it to know culivars to try to determine if it is something that we already know about
2. Assume it is something new, and begin right now to generate combination cultivars of other genetic types that will potentially produce even more interesting looking animals.

This is always a tough call. I spent YEARS trying to figure out what the Mocha/Lavender line really was. Consequently the combination cultivars were much later showing up then they could have been. Was that best to do? Depends on your outlook, I guess. But I sure wish I had been producing Lavender Blood Reds a long time ago.....

Interesting find, no doubt.

And that animal does remind me of some Miami Phase I had years ago. But the blotches were pale orange instead of yellow. But the basic overall look was the same.

Hopefully some neat things will come from this in the future....

hediki said:

hers a pic of a caramel its probably a mix of caramel and anery A

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Not in my opinion (on the "mix" comment). From my experience, if you combine Anery A with Caramel, you get Anery A with the Caramel being masked. I have several Caramel/Anery A Motleys that came from full Caramel Motley parents.

Odd thing about them is that the blacks are much deeper and there doesn't seem to be that sort of bronze look that you sometimes get in Anery A Motleys. So the result is not exactly what I would have expected.

Joejr14 said:

Where does hypo or amel come into play here?

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Have you ever heard of an Amber or Butter Corn?

I think a Golden Lava would be nice, but then I am very bias. I can’t wait to see what a Lava Caramel looks like. An Orange Hypo Morph x Yellow Anery Morph = ??

If I had this Corn, I would breed it to a Butter Motley or Amber Motley, but most likely a Butter Motleys since they are readily available. This would test it against the Caramel gene and throw two other genes in the mix at the same time.

I am sure we could dream up a couple more combos as well, like a Striped Butter, Striped Amber (Don’t remember seeing one) or how about a Sulfur Corn? (Butter Blood) Now that is dreaming. :licklips:

ecreipeoj said:

Have you ever heard of an Amber or Butter Corn?

I think a Golden Lava would be nice, but then I am very bias. I can’t wait to see what a Lava Caramel looks like. An Orange Hypo Morph x Yellow Anery Morph = ??

If I had this Corn, I would breed it to a Butter Motley or Amber Motley, but most likely a Butter Motleys since they are readily available. This would test it against the Caramel gene and throw two other genes in the mix at the same time.

I am sure we could dream up a couple more combos as well, like a Striped Butter, Striped Amber (Don’t remember seeing one) or how about a Sulfur Corn? (Butter Blood) Now that is dreaming. :licklips:

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Sure, but it still doesn't make sense. The snake is female, so why mate her to a male hypo and waste your F1 producing something that *might* be het for amber, only then having to wait another 2-3 years to find out if it really WAS het for amber. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now, breeding her to a butter motley or amber makes more sense, since I'd think you'd be trying to wind up with caramels to see if it is a WC caramel variety.

Well there could be some substantial drawbacks to breeding it to a Caramel or derivative. Suppose we assume that this is NOT a Caramel. Of course, you will get all normal babies. But what will the F2 babies look like? If this "golden" corn proves to be single recessive and the babies of this line look real similar to Caramels, then you may have some problems picking out which ones are which.

I can see the attraction of doing something like a Butter Motley bred to it, but I have already got deep grooves in my head from the head scratching I have done after similar projects that in retrospect, didn't give me any more answers, but instead just gave me more questions.

Rich Z said:

Well there could be some substantial drawbacks to breeding it to a Caramel or derivative. Suppose we assume that this is NOT a Caramel. Of course, you will get all normal babies. But what will the F2 babies look like? If this "golden" corn proves to be single recessive and the babies of this line look real similar to Caramels, then you may have some problems picking out which ones are which.

I can see the attraction of doing something like a Butter Motley bred to it, but I have already got deep grooves in my head from the head scratching I have done after similar projects that in retrospect, didn't give me any more answers, but instead just gave me more questions.

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Then it makes the most sense, if we're in fact going to assume she's not a caramel, to breed her to a WC male locality, no?

It seems genetics never cooperate, they always want to throw ya a loop.

And building on that, if we want to assume she's not a caramel, but some locality weird simple recessive, it would make no sense at all to breed her to nothing but a normal, a WC locality one making the most sense.

Because if we're still assuming she's not a caramel, breeding her to say a butter mot still gives you the same problem---you might get a potential mixup in the F2 since the caramel gene is still floating around in there.

Not at all. If this were my call to make, I would possibly breed her with a non-Caramel variant utilizing Amelanism or Hypomelanism (any one of the 57 flavors) to get a start on a possibly interesting combination project. Since it is pretty obvious that this animal is not an Amelanistic or Hypomelanistic, the results you get later won't confuse the issue at all. And this would be a step above simply just breeding her with a normal. Breeding her with a WC normal from the same locality is just a shot in the dark that the animal bred with here will happen to be het for this trait, if it is in fact a recessive gene we are talking about. Personally, I think the odds would be running very heavily against you for this to happen.

Anyway, then once you have a couple of these projects cooking, THEN breed it with a Caramel, just to see what you get. If you find out it is NOT a Caramel derivative, then you are ahead of the game with some new cutting edge projects. If it IS a Caramel, then what have you really lost at that point?

But like I mentioned, the timing on what you do and how you do it depends on what your ultimate goals are. Some people might rather know earlier then later about whether this animal has any relationship with Caramel. By looking at it, I doubt it, but I've had my ignorance rubbed in my face by facts before...

I hear some good points. I do not like genes like the two Anerys in the same mix or a mix of two hypo genes in a project, but until the “Golden” Corn is tested with a Caramel, it will be an unknown or Caramel look alike.

Some times it is possible to tell similar morphs apart in the F2 generation from the same clutch, much like Rich’s Het Sunkissed and hypo matings this year. There will be some questions, but does this snake really look that much like a Caramel? They are similar because they are basically yellow, but I think most Caramels are a little darker than this girl.

I am really looking forward to my matings of Hets for Lava and Sunkissed this coming year. They were a result of a test breeding that I would not normal mix together except for the need to test the Lavas compatibility with the Sunkissed. Now that I have them, I am really looking forward to seeing the results this year. If the “Golden” is reproducible and not compatible with Caramels, a Homo Golden Caramel, might be the cats meow.

I think Steve’s original point of suggesting a hypo or amel breeding was the most likely good combo with this morph, like the Hypo and Amel genes are with the Caramel gene. What other combos with Caramel have been good except for the pattern genes?

The Anery B gene was mixed up with the Anery A gene in the beginning and somehow we have been able to create separate combos with Anery B, which is a lot more similar to Anery A than the Golden is to Caramel.

I think in the long term, I would certainly want to establish a locality Golden Corn, but this can easily be done the second season. I guess it depends on your goals, like Rich said. I have become totally addicted to trying to produce new cutting edge morphs, so I would assume that it is a new morph and get some projects going now. It takes many, many years to develop new double/triple homo morphs. We don’t know what the possibilities are when combined with other morphs, but as soon as there is one clutch of hets for Golden produced, a locality Golden will inevitably be produce, much like this female.

The locality issue is intriguing, but the Golden morph can also be recreated no matter which morphs she is bred to in the F2 generation, assuming that it is a recessive or co-dominant mutant gene. I would get a jump start on a cutting edge morph NOW, and not waist another year.

The interest in the Golden Corn has been very high, but we haven’t heard from its owner for quite sometime now.

ecreipeoj said:

Some times it is possible to tell similar morphs apart in the F2 generation from the same clutch, much like Rich’s Het Sunkissed and hypo matings this year.

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That is not 100 percent accurate, Joe. But it is not your fault, because I just have not provided the information that follows anywhere before now.

I have had several clutches of eggs that came from animals positively het for Sunkissed and possibly het for 'A' Hypomelanism that produced results that were "problematical". All of the hypo babies look like regular Hypo Okeetees. Not a trace of the pattern anomalies we have associated with the Sunkissed line at all. The odds of them all being regular Hypo Okeetees and NOT Sunkissed is exceedingly slim, so I have to assume that they are, in fact, Sunkisseds despite the lack of earmarks we are used to seeing. It is only when I got a couple that were basically twice as brightly colored, that I felt confident that they were double homzygous for both genetic types.

Yeah, what a sticky gooey mess this is going to be.....

Well, the answer to "what is the best thing to cross to it" is dependent on whether or not it is:

A- a selectively-bred variation.
B- a wild-caught caramel
C- a new color trait similar to, but not the same as caramel.
D- a non-genetic oddball.

Without knowing which it is, there is no "best" cross really.

The other question is 'from which perspective?' Assuming the goal is to get it reproduced as quickly as possible, and in combination with as many other various genes as possible, the most obvious candidate would be whatever you have that will pass down the largest variety of mutant genes to the offspring. If that happens to be a hypo striped/motley snow, or an opal motley, or whatever, then I'd say go for it.

I don't see the point in waiting for 3 or more years to cross other lines into it. The outcome is going to be an unknown until someone does it, so there's nothing to win by trying to avoid the unknown. What is to be gained by waiting for everyone else to do it instead of you? IMO that's the whole point of wanting to work with a new trait.

Obviously the question of "which is it?" is important to many people, too. Crossing it to anything caramel will answer the "allele?" question immediately. IF it's an autosomal recessive trait, you will still produce hets in the first year, and it's unknown whether or not they will stand out from caramels.

Worst case scenario is that they don't, but that won't be known for a few years anyway, and I'm sure some people would be willing to work with those hets, because the second question becomes "since it's not an allele, does it combine with caramel to form an even cooler phenotype?"

But this cross HAS to be done in order to say "this isn't just a caramel." Until that point, IMO these things won't really have much value because who wants to pay some high price just to get what might turn out to be a caramel they could get anywhere for $30?

Also, out of curiosity, I'd still like to know what anyone who was asking for a single F1 male would do with that lone male? :duck:

But this cross HAS to be done in order to say "this isn't just a caramel." Until that point, IMO these things won't really have much value because who wants to pay some high price just to get what might turn out to be a caramel they could get anywhere for $30?

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I think Rich's scenario plays that out very well.

You breed it to amel/hypo and keep all of the offspring.

The next year you cross it with a Caramel. At this point you are still raising yearlings from the first clutch and the current year proving if it is a Caramel. Since you are still not producing f-2's, you're still ahead of the game and have the proof even before anything is available for sale from the f-2 generation.

My 3rd cross to the original female would then be back to her 2 yr old male offspring. Now the excitment begins! :dancer:

What's the latest BlueKing???

Can you give us an update on that beautiful yellow Okeetee-type?

What are her mating plans for the 2005 season?