Contributing...

I'm with CAV, the icon is kinda cool, but let's face it, it ain't worth paying for!
I contributed for these reasons, I like the site, I like Rich, and I happened to have an extra $25 at the time :grin01: I've had way more than that amount of fun here since I registered. Just trying to help out with the expenses :cheers:

Menhir said:

What I dislike is that fact, that since the whole thing started it got more and more into threads with newbies and signatures with the intention "we have to help this board because we have to give something back". And excactly the feeling that is transported by this statement is different to what you describe as paying for service and what Rich describes as "being slightly profitable".
Don't you think?

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I'm sorry but I can't help thinking that this reply is about ME. Could you please read my signature area and tell me where it says that "we have to help this board because we have to give something back"? It only asks if you'd like to.

The reason I added it to my signature is because when I decided I wanted to become a contributer I didn't see a link anywhere, but I knew I'd seen one before. It was in another members signature (couldn't remember who) and he hadn't posted in awhile so I couldn't find it. I added it to my signature because I didn't what anyone else to have the same problem if they decided to become a financial contributer. It just happend that a few of us all did it at the same time. I imagine it was for similar reasons.

Sorting through all the other excellent responses, and the initial inquiry, I see this as coming down to two things that are felt to be separating contributors and non-contributors: Editing and For Sale ads. Regardless of how much you feel Rich makes in sales because of his 'advertising' by having this board, there is really no argument or discussion to be had here:
1. How is editing a 'right' that everyone should have? I've also been to other forums, some allow you to edit, others don't.
2. Why on Earth should Rich, or anyone else for that matter, allow someone to compete against them financially for free?!

Basically, you do not lose out on anything at all by not contributing to this site. Be a little more careful before hitting that 'post reply' button so you don't need to use the edit function, and if you decide to sell animals here, best contribute. It's pretty simple really.

As a side note, for the most part, contributors "put their money where their mouth is" in my opinion. As a newbie coming in 2 years ago, it would have been a bit easier/quicker picking out some of the better sources of information from the bad. (This doesn't mean nor imply that just because you are/aren't a contributor that your information is good/bad. It means that the majority of contributors IMO right now generally have positive, correct, information to supply to discussions.) Trolls and bad apples aren't going to cough up a donation/contribution as readily either.

Proud to contribute, and not a snob because of it,
D80

So it just sounds like you are feeling like no one thinks you contribute because you don't have a coin? Is that your point? Seriously, I am not trying to come off rude, I am honestly asking if that is the problem addressed. It sounds like if we didn't have contributor coins but instead payed fees for certain features, like edit and classifieds you'd be OK with that? Is that your feeling? Maybe all those people should change their sigs to "Become a Monetary Contributor".

I personally wouldn't mind if I didn't have a coin. I contributed because I upload pics like crazy on this site, and once in a while due to my forgetfulness, sometimes the same pic twice. This has been VERY valuable to me recently when I had a system crash and lost a lot pics. I have been able to restore lots of them because they have been faithfully supported here.

Menhir said:

And exactly the feeling that is transported by this statement is different to what you describe as paying for service and what Rich describes as "being slightly profitable".
Don't you think?

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He did not say it was "slightly profitable" he said that he hoped one day it would pay for itself or become slightly profitable. I have no doubt that at this point in time given hours and money the site does not pay for itself even factoring in the free advertising.

It is GREAT you are offering a nice service and advice for free, but just because you offer a free service does not obligate everyone else to do so.

Well, as I recall, the editting your post feature had to be yanked because of abuse by trolls and others of that ilk that would post something, get a huge discussion going, and then get mad and yoink their posts or change their posts to take away or change their meaning to somehow make themselves look better or be able to claim "nope, didn't say that, see?"

It was my impression that the edit feature was reinstituted for contributors because most people who care enough to donate a puny $25 aren't the typical ones abusing the system. (standard disclaimer: No, that doesn't imply that all people who don't have the "coin" are horrible, bad people and can't be trusted with the edit button.)

Re: the restricted access to placing for sale ads (when did this happen, did I miss that thread?) - I don't see how this is a bad thing, either. Newspapers charge for advertising....yellow pages charge for advertising... heck, Kingsuck charges for advertising and no one would expect them not to. Somehow the internet has turned into "I shouldn't have to pay for something because I want it to be free." To me, it's worth it to advertise on a site with such a high traffic rate and with the good group of people we have here. If there's a better group of corn people in one spot on the net, I haven't found it.

As for the reputation issue, different verse, same as the first. It's the "reputation system" threads revisited. We already got the ability to give a disapproval rating taken away because of abuse of the system and sand-throwing. Sad, that. I honestly doubt that most newbies coming in here are going to stake their opinions of anyone by the fact that so-and-so has a coin, 876 rep power, and fifty green dots. They'll do like most do and read through threads and decide for themselves based on content and contribution. I don't see how it's an issue.

The coins are nice to me because I get the warm fuzzies seeing a new person kicking in. I guess I fail to see how Rich sending contributors a public thank you is a horrible thing. If you are one of those people who are publicity-shy or just don't want the coin, but want to contribute...there's no one stopping you. A simple e-mail would solve that one.

I guess I just don't have a problem with paying for services rendered (banner ads, for sale ads, subforums, web hosting), I don't have a problem with someone taking voluntary contributions, and I don't have a problem with that same someone giving a couple of minor 'perks' that don't change the content of the site...incentive vs. thank you...I fail to see the evil in either intention.


Menhir, you've contributed a ton to this forum and the point you raise is good for discussion. I'm going to sit the opposite side of the fence on this one, and we'll all go on. I honestly wouldn't think any different of you or your site if I popped on there and saw a "make a donation" button on your calculator. Heck, I'd probably donate to it for the effort and the use (if I used it...but we've had this conversation before, too. ) The only thing I see withheld to "non-contributors" is the ability to post for sale ads. The edit feature got taken away a long time ago. Nothing has changed, there. I doubt Rich would have given it back due to the problems we've had with trolls abusing it.

Anyway, no one is saying you have to contribute. No one thinks less of you if you don't...that's a choice. No one is going to think your advice is somehow any less helpful than anyone else's. :shrugs:

To each his/her own.
:cheers:

princess said:

I have to say that I'm really feeling that too, especially from one member in particular who seem to be relishing the fact that he gets extra privileges and is rolling in it as if he's done something he should be really proud of.

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I read this and wonder if this quote was made about me? If so, I'd prefer to just be called out by name instead of suggestion.

About the contributor aspect of this, I'll say this. I doubt that anybody here joined to get a nice little 'coin icon' to be cool. I joined because I spend an immense amount of time on this website and feel that I should contribute to help Rich out with the costs of this website. I might be a broke ass college student, but for $25 a year and slightly over $2 a month, I can handle that. Nobody here can convince me that they do not have $25 to pony up.

I don't post for sale ads, and I don't really edit my posts, so those were not the factors for joining. I was actually pretty upset over the fact that the BOI went to pay only to post.

Regardless, I know what type of work load that Rich has, and that his time is better spent in the snake building than sitting online and giving us all access to the best info on the web. He should not have to take all the costs on himself, in my opinion. Like I said, with the amount of time I've spent on this website and the amount at which it's helped me out, $25 is a steal.

Changing signature from "Want to become a contributing member? Click here!" to ...

Starting to sound like sour grapes now......

Menhir said:

That's nice and easy but ignores the difference between letting people pay for a service or hiding the will to benefit from the board behind a "help the board to stay alive" message.

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It has nothing to do with being "nice and easy". Even you must agree that was a completely true statement, was it not?

Menhir said:

What I dislike is that fact, that since the whole thing started it got more and more into threads with newbies and signatures with the intention "we have to help this board because we have to give something back". And excactly the feeling that is transported by this statement is different to what you describe as paying for service and what Rich describes as "being slightly profitable".
Don't you think?

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No, I honestly think you're point is without merit. I read just about every post on this forum, and not including a few joking remarks made by select individuals, I just don't see the raging "in your face" sentiment that seems to be troubling you. If you can actually substantiate your claim with links to the offending statements, I'll be happy to make a retraction.

Menhir said:

And with that feeling already in my head - and be sure, I may be one of the only ones talking about it here, but my mail account tells me that more people feel so - I'm kind of dissappointed that next to NOT having the coin and therefore exploiting RichZ, I'm starting to have less rights and functionality than the "coin" people have.

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Right….those unspoken masses, yearning for a champion to speak for them. Thank goodness you stepped up when you did.

Again let's review "the rights" in question:

1) Sales adds that you (by your own admission) can't and don't use
2) An edit function that doesn't in anyway hamper your ability to participate in any thread which suits your fancy.

Nope, I just don't see the disenfranchisement that you claim to be facing.

Menhir said:

Wouldn't it be a better idea to describe the "contributor" thing as an extra SERVICE that people can buy. This service could include an own subforum and the ability to sell animals.

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Wasn't that the basis for your complaint to begin with??

Menhir said:

P.S.: What would the community do if tomorrow all genetic geeks include a donation button saying "pay us our time or we don't answer genetic questions completely anymore, you just get slightly reduced answers"?

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I'm sure the snakes will continue to eat. breed and life will go one. Thankfully, there are more than a few members (which are just as knowledgeable) that don't feel the need to use titles like "genetics geek".

I'm sorry but I can't help thinking that this reply is about ME. Could you please read my signature area and tell me where it says that "we have to help this board because we have to give something back"? It only asks if you'd like to.

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Actually Mary-Beth...best assumption would be that Princess's comment was about me :shrugs: . I have only a couple years experience with corns, tho I've been a forum member since '03. I just never posted a lot because I was listening and learning.

If it is about me...I've never had a problem making friends and don't need to "push a contribution" to be accepted by Rich..or anyone else here. I stated my reasons for contributing and why I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. I added a link to contribute to my sig because I found the contribution area thru DanD's sig. Thought it might help those that wanted to contribute.

I've also NEVER said anything that would lead a person to make any kind of an assumption I was "rolling" in having extra privileges.

Still my assumption has to be it's about me.

I guess being friendly makes me a "want-to-be"..sheesh I guess we're all back in high school.

It is an outrage that anyone should feel singled out by this ridiculous thread

I don't think it was directed at you Mike. The fact that someone derives their self worth from a "shiny thingy", OR THE LACK THEREOF........is just sad and pathetic. uke02:

I keep thinking this over, I am not a terribly stubborn person and do try to see the other persons point of view but the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am with my stand.

I am convinced that the rest of us get LOADS more benefit out of this site than Rich ever will.

Imagine this site was gone tomorrow...
Who would be more hurt, us or Rich?

Rich had his super reputation before he ever started this forum. If the forum disappeared tomorrow over 5,000 people would still probably figure out how to get to www.Serpenco.com. And he'd have much more time and money leftover for whatever he wanted. I almost fear that the more I argue this, Rich might just get the idea! Especially when it seems his work here is expected instead of appreciated.

However, for me, I'd be up a creek. With over 300 hatchlings, and only the "alternative" left to use as a community and customer base...WOW...what a scary thought. Unfortunately, reptile shows are few and far between on the West Coast. This forum is my lifeline to the best of the best in the corn community.

The problem with having people do volunteer work, is nothing really is for free. Ya, the use of your site is free, but is it really free if you expect free services in return? I can just see Rich finding volunteers, and those volunteers decide that since they put in some many hours they should be the ones to make decisions regarding the site. No thank you, I'd rather that be in Rich's hands. Rich is about as "fair" a person as you are going to find.

I first added how to become a contributor to my signature because I was getting PM’s asking how to become one. Since then a few others have added the link to their signature but I have not seen where someone has said:

Menhir said:

I read in many threads of new members and in signatures that we HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE to give THE SITE SOMETHING BACK.

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Hurley said:

Hmm, that button has been there for quite some time...at least as long or longer than the contributor icons to my recollection.

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I believe it was long before the Contributor icons started.

CAV said:

I can only speak for myself but I didn't pony up funds for the ability to edit a post or post a sale add.

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Ditto. I was (am) a Contributor over on Fauna before the Contributor icons were started here. I believe it was CAV or Hurley who got the first icon over here. When I saw it I PM’ed Rich and asked how to sign up here too. I then added it to my signature so that others wouldn’t have to bother Rich as I did. I contributed both here and Fauna because I wanted to, and before there were any additional “perks”.

Menhir said:

P.S.: What would the community do if tomorrow all genetic geeks include a donation button saying "pay us our time or we don't answer genetic questions completely anymore, you just get slightly reduced answers"?

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I guess others will pick up the slack.


I have a question; Can someone point out another company/business out there who allows free classifieds to be posted on their sites? Heck, another that allows classifieds period?

Although I'm not a genetics geek, I'd be more than happy to try and pick up as much slack as possible, for free.

This thread has really gotten interesting. When I first started reading this thread, I wasn't going to post anything here. But, after getting to the end, I have come to the conclusion that it is worth my time to get into this discussion.

First, I have been a member for less than a year, but have learned a lot, and been able to help out a lot of people. I joined back when the Edit feture was still around and the Classifieds were still free. Back then, I didn't have enough hatchlings to even think about posting a for sale ad. This year, I just might. But, those are not the reasons I came to this site, spent the amount of time that I have here, or donated the $25. I stayed here because I enjoy talking to everyone here, I learn a lot even when I already know the fundamentals of keeping and breeding corns, and I love to look at all the pictures of things that people have either hatched out, or have up for sale (even if I can't afford them).

Second, lets take a look at the Classifieds. Rich Z bases probably his entire income off of selling Corn snakes. This includes the time that it takes to raise up the hatchlings, figuring out all the genetics, etc. Then he has to prove out that the genetics are what he claims them to be before he is able to sell them. This site is a very good portal into Serpenco, and gives Rich a lot of advertisement. However, before the classifieds went to contributors only, it gave a lot of other people the same amount of advertising.

Lets step back and look at something here. You have a website where you allow people to post for sale ads. You happen to produce item X and sell it via your website at a set price that you determined. However, Item X is available for others to produce. Next you go and submit your set price for Item X so that you can start selling for the year. After you set this price, Joe Schmo, who also produces Item X, comes along and seeing your price and the fact that you are providing free classifieds, and decides to post his for sale ad, for 20 or 30 dollars less than your price. How would this make you feel? It will take away from your earnings at your own hosted site.

The whole point of the classifieds being open to contributors is that if someone is willing to pay $25 a year, then they are more than likely not trying to out sell your set price. And to be perfectly honest, if you are complaining about the price of 25 bucks, go take a look as some of the other reptile forums and find out how much they charge for classifieds.

If CS does become profittable from contributions by the people, then it will mean that it has become well worth the time that Rich has taken away from his living to provide us people with a free service instead of making everyone pay when they walk in the door.

Third, as for the people having a contributor link in their sig. Have you tried to look for the contribution area? with out the help of those links? It is pretty hard to find. Yes, it is in your CP, but it is way at the bottom of the menu. Most people that have it in their sig is just trying to give people an easy way to get there.

Fourth, there aren't very many other places that you can go to get the same privilages, friendships, etc on the web as you get here. One day, as rich stated already, Serpenco will be gone, and so too will this site. Unless someone else takes over the reins, or people start helping out with the costs of running a forum site. To be honest, I would hate to see this site go. There is such a vast wealth of knowledge here, and a lot of people have made some really good friendships and business partners here.

Complaining about things that you don't use really don't help anything. Nor do they really give credibility to your arguments. The contributions that Rich is getting from us here at CS is more than likely going right back into CS, not Serpenco, or Rich's pocket. The Coins are a nice recognicion of people that have helped out, but like most on here say, they are not really needed. All it is giving you is another Avatar photo (when you really think about it).

CAV said:

Thankfully, there are more than a few members (which are just as knowledgeable) that don't feel the need to use titles like "genetics geek".

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CAV said:

Starting to sound like sour grapes now...

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Sure are...

Wut?

Hey, I gave you credit for the Trundlefarts didn't I?

CAV said:

Hey, I gave you credit for the Trundlefarts didn't I?

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I hope not, those are Clint's invention. Whoo-smokeys is he gonna be sore about that!

I'm not sure how to answer all that replies.
Most of them deal with the Sales thing and in my last posting I already said, that it's OK for me when Rich - who also sales such Ads in the FaunaClassifieds - now decided to let people pay for that.
I also said that I may be a little too idealistic to give things for free that can be given - others are not, that's life. It is my feeling that it would be more honest to explain the "Contributing" thing as what it is namely buying an extra service and not using it as some kind of "status" that leads people to pay. I'm quit sure that I read "Help keep this site alive" and others here, not by Rich itself BTW. (no CAV, I don't read the whole forum, nor do I have a link for everything - I'm the "champ of the masses" when it depends on feelings it seems...) Again, my feelings and they don't have to be yours but it's a different approach keeping a site alive or making slight profit with it. I'm not a communist or someone who is against earning money, I'm just on the side to make that clear.
There are many boards out there giving paying members extra rights, no problem with that, I just reacted on the fact that "we" lost rights that others didn't and I got the feeling that I should respond on that. It was clear for me that this wouldn't be a popular opinion.

Someone said that I contributed a ton to this site - I don't know where, but thanks for that BTW.

Menhir said:

I just reacted on the fact that "we" lost rights that others didn't and I got the feeling that I should respond on that. It was clear for me that this wouldn't be a popular opinion.

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That's an easy one then... is that all we have been arguing about?

Think of it this way...
First of all "rights" just doesn't apply, I'm sorry.
EVERYONE lost "privileges" here. Those privileges turned into paid services. Rich was reasonable enough not to make everyone who contributed for sincere reasons BEFORE this change pay again. When I contributed, the only perk was the separate forum... definatly not my reason for contributing. Are you saying that since these "privileges" have become paid services that I should have to pay again?
And just because there are now "paid services" doesn't mean people can't still contribute with a donation... just because the like it and use it so darn much.

Well this thread has been interesting. Thanks to those who feel I am not trying to gouge you with my contribution fee.

One point needs to be made here, I think. To be honest, I feel pretty sure that most people probably found this site THROUGH SerpenCo, and not SerpenCo through this site. I may be wrong, though. Does anyone remember why I really set up a message board in the first place? Back when I originally had it right on my SerpenCo.com site?

I did it because I was getting worn down by emails asking questions. Same questions just about every day from a multitude of people. So I got the idea that maybe setting up a message board would at least allow me to answer such questions ONLY once, and the rest of the people would read that answer, saving my getting yet another email asking that very same question. Then as people participated in the forum itself, I soon saw that many of the questions were being fielded by other people, which helped me out quite a bit. It got to the point that when people asked me questions, I simple asked them to check out CornSnakes.com to see if they could find their answers there.

So you see, I never really set up this site as an advertising funnel for myself at all. But heck, after it was established, I felt that putting my sponsorship logo on it wasn't going to be too bad of an idea. And the section I have for more direct questions and the photo gallery also seemed much more logical to have them here rather then setting up yet another section on my SerpenCo.com site, don't you think?

To be perfectly honest, the last couple of years, the majority of my sales of cornsnakes came from large concerns buying large quantities of animals, many going overseas. With that in mind, the retail sales I may have gotten from THIS site and the people who may have come here first and found SerpenCo through this site is pretty much negligible. I feel EXTREMELY confident saying that if this site were to go away tomorrow, it would not affect my sales much, if at all.

Please don't take this as my saying I don't need this site, because I do, but only for the original reason. It takes a lot of the burden off of me having to answer questions that a lot of people ask every year about breeding, cultivars, egg laying and egg hatching. It's always new people asking them, but it is the same questions, nonetheless. As for me needing this site for a commercial reason and the necessity of my getting my advertising out to the public, no, I don't think so. Not at all. Heck, how often do you see ME advertising anything in my own classifieds here?

Now as for some people being irked at there being a dividing line here between contributors and non-contributors, how is that any different from what you see in the rest of the world? The world is full of distinctions like that. Some people would like to have the distinction of having Lavender Blood Reds. Well you can do so. All you have to do is pay for it. Some people would like to be seen driving a Mercedes down the road rather then a Volkswagen. Yup you can do that too. You just need to do what it takes to make that leap. Want a bigger or better house? Want better clothes? How about a pool in the back yard? Want to live in a better neighborhood? Want to send your kids to a better private school then the public school? Sure everyone would. But all of those distinctions in life that people would CHOOSE to have if they could generally require some sort of sacrifice from them. Now maybe things are different in Europe. I don't know as I have never been there. But since I am located in the USA, my heritage and culture tends to go with the flow as it works over here.

So if I decide to grant perks to people who are willing to help me out financially, well I'm just going to do that. Regardless of who doesn't like it, and the reasons behind WHY they don't like it. That is my choice to make for my own reasons. I don't expect everyone to like it, and nor do I much care. I try to have a logical and sound reason behind everything I do. Sometimes I am wrong, but certainly I am not afraid to try something simply because I am not sure of the ultimate results that may not be precisely forecast. I just try to do what I think is BEST. Those that may disagree with my decisions are welcome to discuss this, but bear in mind that your expressing your opinion does not obligate me to accept it and thereby change MY opinion. If you cannot accept the possibility that I may disagree with you, then be careful that your request isn't a thinly vieled demand instead. In such a case, you would simply be setting yourself up to find yourself painted into a corner where you have no other choice but to leave this site because your demand wasn't met. I've seen this happen several times over on FaunaClassifieds, so it certainly is not improbable that it can happen here as well.