hybrids vs. nonhybrids

I know, but come on, is it really needed that I post such an advanced definition?

patm1313 said:

Genuses are there for a reason, so there is no point in having only one species for one genus.

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What? There are many monotypic genera. Trained and qualified taxonomists see the point in this, so it should be good enough for you.

Hybrids should be put under a mixed category, such as Pantherophis Guttata-Emoryi, so how does that sound?

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Sounds ridiculous. You asked...

I think you need to learn more about taxonomy before you offer suggestions for revising existing paradigms.

I'm not offering suggestions, I'm just putting in my $.02 about it.

I'm sure trained and qualified taxonomists can see the point in monotypic genera, as they went to college for it .

I know my ideas sound ridiculous, that's what makes them unique.

patm1313 said:

I'm not offering suggestions, I'm just putting in my $.02 about it.

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How come I feel over charged!!

patm1313 said:

I know, but come on, is it really needed that I post such an advanced definition?

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.....only if you want to understand the scientifically CORRECT definition(s). If you don't, then how can you argue the merit of a new man-created taxa? In my mind, it isn't possible.

patm1313 said:

I know my ideas sound ridiculous, that's what makes them unique.

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That doesn't make any sense. A ridiculous idea doesn't mean it is unique. Lots of people liked Britney Spears, and that is pretty ridiculous (but not unique). :dancer: Unique ideas don't have to seem ridiculous, either. Watson came up with a unique idea about the "double helix," but it was in NO way seen as ridiculous.

That sentence with the comma splice just doesn't make any sense. I don't think "ridiculous" and "unique" mean what you think they mean - even if you can post a definition of both words off of webster.com next.....lol.

KJUN said:

.....only if you want to understand the scientifically CORRECT definition(s). If you don't, then how can you argue the merit of a new man-created taxa? In my mind, it isn't possible.

That doesn't make any sense. A ridiculous idea doesn't mean it is unique. Lots of people liked Britney Spears, and that is pretty ridiculous (but not unique). :dancer: Unique ideas don't have to seem ridiculous, either. Watson came up with a unique idea about the "double helix," but it was in NO way seen as ridiculous.

That sentence with the comma splice just doesn't make any sense. I don't think "ridiculous" and "unique" mean what you think they mean - even if you can post a definition of both words off of webster.com next.....lol.

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Funny analogy with Britney Spears . Anyway, I realize that unique and ridiculous are different.

patm1313 said:

Funny analogy with Britney Spears . Anyway, I realize that unique and ridiculous are different.

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What is your POINT!?!

There is an attempt at legitimate, informed and knowledgable conversation here, that you are simply muddying with what you admit is ridiculous, grade school and uninformed DRIVEL! So why? What the &*^% is the point of interrupting KNOWLEDGEABLE people during a very scientific discussion that you OBVIOUSLY know very little about???

Patm1313...just sit there, read the topic, and LEARN something, instead of interrupting with kindergarten questions and ideas. I swear it is worse than listening to two college professors have a conversation with a 3-year old in the background...

I don't have anything further to add to the legitimate discussion at hand, because I would prefer to LEARN something from the more knowledgeable here...perhaps YOU should do the same, patm1313...you stand to gain some very valuable knowledge if you would just resist the urge to hit that "submit reply" button on occasion and READ something...

the the original poster--
My opinion only, but it seems you have only two choices. You are obviously in doubt over the purity of your snake's heritage. So your options are narrowed down to two, as far as I can see...on one hand you breed your snake and sell ALL offspring as potential hybrids in order to maintain as much truth and honesty as possible. On the other hand, you don't breed your snake, and avoid any potential confusion from it's unknown heritage. Either way...you have a snake that you can enjoy...

The bottom line...as KJUN pointed out...it takes many, many years of informed observation to identify hybrids vs. non-hybrids. Some people have an eye, some people don't. When in doubt, I believe that you should be as honest as possible, and identify your doubts to potential buyers.

KJUN said:

Isn't that a little hypocritical? If you don't care about them being pure cornsnake, why do you care if they have genes from outside of the NA ratsnake-complex? In my eyes, either you care it is pure or you don't.

What is the difference betyween a cornsnake hybrid qith 10% Cal-King in it (for example) and one with 20% obsoleta? Both are hybrids. What is the difference between one and the other if the hybrid thing doesn't bother you?

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Well, my logic on it was behind creating a Pantherophis-based domesticated snake, with the idea that there might well be further domesticated hybrids specified (for example, leopard geckos are almost certainly integrade/hybrids between several Eublepharis macularius subspecies AND a couple of other species of Eublepharis - I'd support calling all current captives Eublepharis domesticus and only calling wild-origin or directly traceable animals with the appropriate species name).

For example, I own a hybrid animal whose dam is a corn snake and whose sire is an Elaphe climacophora (Japanese Ratsnake). I wouldn't call THIS one a "Pantherophis domesticus = North American Ratsnake" because:

1. He's not all Pantherophis
2. He's not all North American.

I'd call him exactly what I call him now - a Hybrid Ratsnake.

A cross between Pantherophis obsoletus rossalini and Pantherophis guttatus is still all Pantherophis-genus (or Elaphe if you prefer that) - but a cross between a Lampropeltis getulus californiae and a Pantherophis guttattus isn't all Pantherophis or indeed entirely composed of animal that is commonly called a "ratsnake".

I don't like any hybrids, but I now I've been in the minority since people started collecting snakes like stamps instead of keeping them to admire functioning portions of the ecosystem. I just can't see why you are saying hybrids are OK....as long as they are just limited to a mix of certain species. I'd love your explanation, though.

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I'm actually not saying that hybrids are OK or not OK... I'm just saying we have to accept that the animals we currently CALL corns in captivity might be less Pantherophis guttattus than we thought... and if we're concerned about having pure animals, maybe declaring the animals we've got in captivity that aren't traced to locality wildcaughts as "potential hybrids" and thus a new domesticated species might make it easier to winnow the original wild caught Red Rat Snakes from the "Creamsicle Lavender Jungle TurboMegaCorns".

You get down to it, I don't LIKE cryptic hybrids - especially when they have potential negative consequences like king/corn crosses or fertility issues (I'm sure I remember something about gopher/corn crosses having one gender infertile in the first generation) - but I rather do like hybrids that LOOK like hybrids. Il Palazzo, my Hybrid Rat, looks like a hybrid. He doesn't look like he's all corn; he doesn't look like he's all Japanese ratsnake. He's a curiosity and I can't wait to see what he looks like as an adult. Shame we'll never find out whether he IS fertile - I wouldn't breed him except to another hybrid like him, since I wouldn't want to be producing animals that look too much like one or the other parent species.

Really - I'm not arguing with your proposition - I'm asking for explanation on why you support the premise. I believe that is a fair question.

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Fair enough Is there evidence to show that other ratsnakes interbreed as readily with Pituophis as Pantherophis guttattus does? I must admit it's not something I'd looked into because I don't want to own, nor do I have any interest in the creation of, Pituophis/Pantherophis crosses.

patm1313 said:

Ever heard of Felis Domesticus?

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Nope, 'cos there's no such thing

The domestic cat is Felis silvestris catus. And ALL fully domesticated cats were the offspring of Felis silvestris silvestris and/or Felis silvestris lybica.

Now... Bengals, Chausies, Savannahs and some of the other designer hybrids... well, they're still classified as domestic cats if you look at the British Dangerous Wild Animals listings. Yes, they've got a parent, grandparent or great-grandparent that wasn't a domestic cat... but for legal reasons they're still considered Felis silvestris catus. Bengals have Asian Leopard Cat heritage; Chausies have African Jungle Cat heritage and Savannahs have African Serval heritage.

It was said that domestic house cats should be put under a single species name, and it was so. Let's use an example. I'm looking for a cat. I'll use my cat Bachi as an example. I want to buy my cat Bachi, so I put up a wanted ad. What do I say? She was, at some point a single species. In that time, I could have said "Wanted: Felis Leopardis (not real species) and there you go, six days later someone would answer my ad and I would have a nice little kitten. But now, they are all the same species. So now I say, "Wanted: Black spotted cat, speckled brown background with black stripe along tail and back, long wiskers, and white belly." There is no longer any difference.

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There wasn't a difference between them anyway - because cat colours are coat-based paint jobs applied in place of the wild-type colours on the same species (akin to lavender or amel on a cornsnake) and are not based on species heritage. Crossing an Emoryi ratsnake into a cornsnake isn't just a paintjob change - it's akin to crossing a domestic cat to a Scottish wildcat.

I think that the more specific we can get, the better. Genuses are there for a reason, so there is no point in having only one species for one genus. Hybrids should be put under a mixed category, such as Pantherophis Guttata-Emoryi, so how does that sound?

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The sound you are hearing is the point I was making going over your head.

I am proposing that we DO create a "mixed category" - Pantherophis familiaris - to describe hybrids and possible hybrids of the Pantherophis complex of species in captivity, with the idea that any animal whose heritage cannot be traced to wild-caught animals who are all the same species, will be arbitrarily assigned to this new domestic species. The wild animals will still be Pantherophis guttattus or emoryi or obsoleta; animals that you go out and catch that are Pantherophis guttattus will stay Pantherophis guttattus... but if you cross one to a Pantherophis familiaris, then its offspring are P. familiaris!

But people are not. We no longer list them as ratsnakes, so my mentality is not that people are breeding ratsnakes, as much as they are breeding corns.

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Maybe the wildcaught ones need to be called Red Ratsnakes again - and the domestic species is a "corn snake" and may contain other Pantherophis species.

Sure, colors are dandy, but you have to notice something. The species have already changed. It's not like they all look the same. I see differences between Emoryi's and Corns. They all have different properties, so they need to be in different species.

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One of the definitions of species used to be that they could not interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Well, my boy Il Palazzo shows that not only can a corn breed with another North American ratsnake (or pine snake, or gopher, or king) but with a species from another continent entirely.

I'm not wholly convinced it's impossible to breed a cornsnake to a daffodil and get fertile offspring :crazy02: based on what else you can put them to and get live babies out of.

So, if that's the case - if a corn can be bred to many of the North American species - and even some of the Asian ratsnake species - does that mean they're all congeneric?

The bottom line...as KJUN pointed out...it takes many, many years of informed observation to identify hybrids vs. non-hybrids. Some people have an eye, some people don't. When in doubt, I believe that you should be as honest as possible, and identify your doubts to potential buyers.

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That's my plan. I don't have any "corns" that I bought as such that set the warning bells ringing - but I have seen a fair few animals in general that do make me wonder "How far back in the woodpile is the obsoleta I'm seeing?"

For example, I own a hybrid animal whose dam is a corn snake and whose sire is an Elaphe climacophora (Japanese Ratsnake)

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Really? Love to see a pic or two of that :*)

I have been reading threads and literature on this topic for a long time because it really interests me. The discussion over this topic doesn't just exist in the herp world, it exist pretty much anywhere where breeding is a topic of discussion. I generally try not to comment on these topics because I don't feel qualified enough to speak. I am an owner of a two year old creamsicle corn. He is my first snake and I chose him from a breeder because of his color. It wasn't until later, when I joined this forum, that I even found out about hybrid snakes and the fact that my snake is considered a hybrid. It would have been nice to have been informed of this prior to purchase. It would not have changed the outcome, I still would have bought him, but I would have known exactly what I was bringing home. I try not to be offended by those who think that he is somehow sub-standard, but it is hard not to be. Now, I would like to breed him and I am harp it hard to find a reason for limiting myself to just another creamsicle(I realize that there are many of you that will not agree). I have read many discussions for and against crossing corns and rats, or creamsicles and other corns,the biggest being that crossing the snakes would "muddy" the bloodlines. Here is my question to all: If the concern is that in crossing the snakes we will somehow lose the original species as they were originally created, then isn't the very act of removing them from the wild and domesticating them doing just that? The very act of keeping and breeding snakes changes it. In my opinion, the only way to preserve a snake species is to leave it in its natural habitat.

I am proposing that we DO create a "mixed category" - Pantherophis familiaris - to describe hybrids and possible hybrids of the Pantherophis complex of species in captivity, with the idea that any animal whose heritage cannot be traced to wild-caught animals who are all the same species, will be arbitrarily assigned to this new domestic species. The wild animals will still be Pantherophis guttattus or emoryi or obsoleta; animals that you go out and catch that are Pantherophis guttattus will stay Pantherophis guttattus... but if you cross one to a Pantherophis familiaris, then its offspring are P. familiaris!

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This I completely agree with!
I ask this questions not create tension, but to gain as much knowledge as I possibly can. I have a great responsibility as a pet owner and I don't take this responsibility lightly. If I am to breed him in the future, I want to not only do what brings me enjoyment, but also preserves the integrity and quality of what I believe to be one of the coolest creatures on the planet. Sorry for the length, but I have been quiet for over two years on this subject and thanks to all for this topic and this forum.(LOL)

It's just my view, but I think that by keeping corns in captivity, we may change the look of the animal, by way of color morphs, but captivity does not change the animal's species.
Hybrid breeding changes the animal's species.

One pet peeve of mine is breeders who sell hybrids and don't inform the buyer.

I am glad you are asking advice, and thinking things through. In the end, he is your animal, and you will breed him to whatever you wish! And I'm sure you will inform the buyers of the babies hybrid status. It's just that there are so many hybrids that "look" pure already....and who knows how honest the people who buy YOUR hybrid hatchlings will be? It's not your responsibility, after that point, but at least if you stick to breeding creams to creams, it's easier to tell what's what with your eyes, and not having to rely on the honesty of other people.

(Plus, if you get a cream mate for your cream, and long for something "different", it gives you the excuse to get 2 more snakes!)

Yes, very true on all counts. No doubt I will end up with several pet snakes. I blame it on my son, but truth be told, it's really me.

don't know much, I know my oppinion is not necessarily that valuable to most people on the internet, but I absolutely think that it would be a good idea AT SOME POINT, to go ahead and go with the idea that we can agree to go with a new name for "domesticated" corns.

I know it takes hundreds, if not even thousands of years to truly "domesticate" an animals, but at some point we do manage to do it <well somewhat> look at dogs and cats. When did we decide on what the scientific names of those were different than wild specimans?

I'm sure the answer is that they were domesticated even before we began writing things down in a "proper" scientific manner. None the less it did happen.

When can we say we have "domesticated" a reptile species? At what timeline and in how many captive bred generations? When do we decide that we truly have "domesticated" a species? I think that it would be fair to say, as far as reptiles go, corns have got to be one of the species or groups that have been worked with the longest...

Maybe it would be a good idea to start a "revolution" ??! lol

Rebecca

ps- I am canadian and since this is an american board I think with exchange my opinion only comes up to a penny and a bit....

I'm not ready for all captive species to be called a different name taxonomically from wild caught ones. What happens when people start finding escaped morphs, calling it a wild caught and using the wc name...people already find morphs that have escaped. Giving them legitimacy that doesn't exist currently isn't going to improve the situation. Unscrupulous breeders will still breed the genes into the mix and do what they do. Then we will have TWO classifications which no one is happy with because of "polluted bloodlines".

Bharmonika-
There is nothing wrong with breeding your snake to a corn and getting cool creamsicle morphs. It's already being done, and has been done for a few years now. The improtant part is that you always inform your customers of the lineage, making them aware that they are intergrades, and not "pure". I think that's the best anyone can ask or hope for at this point...

starsevol said:

One pet peeve of mine is breeders who sell hybrids and don't inform the buyer.

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Exactly I don't have anything to add on genus etc.

But being a corn owner (and as of today finding out I won a hybrid Jungle Corn)

I'm not so happy a camper.

Yes The snake was labled Jungle Corn but there was no mention of it being a mixed hybrid likely with king snakes.

I very much wanted to try housing my corns together.
Having lost one likely do to size in the two corns.

I tried a second time with this Jungle corn and a corn of about the same size.
Well I'm pretty sure now he was eaten.
I've owned a king snake know they eat other snakes. had I been informed of the so called hybrid bit I never would have put another snake in with this Jungle.

I mean she's beautiful don't get me wrong. But she was bought for my wife as a pet and we liked her looks. Like many corns having varied names Ididn't think anything of it at the time.

The cost and empotions of a vanished snake due to eating doesn't make me feel any better today.

Hybrids nice but even someone who has owned corns can easily fall into lack of info. Is it my fault yeah a little, but the breeder should have told me he doesn't know me from adam and unless I spend hours discussing snakes wiht them I should be looked upon as an uninformed buyer.

Hybrid all you want but make sure you tell the end buyer. Hell even if they know tell em again anyway.

M

Beautiful but cannibalistic. Wish I had know.

This is Freida.
Jungle Corn Albino

Midnight, I'm so sorry you lost your corn.
But even 2 corns should never be housed together.
They are solitary animals, only coming together in nature to mate.
By forcing them to live together, you would be making them endure stress that they can never escape.
That stress can lead to health problems.
Also, if you have a male and a female, by co-habbing them you are allowing the male access 24/7 to a female that may not be old enough, or big enough to safely lay eggs. That can result in the death of the female.

Plus, even though it's rare, corns CAN be cannabals when co-habbed......

I see a few issues here but it is basically with your Husbandry.

Typically this is the reason why most of us keep are snakes separate from our others. It doesn't matter if its a king or a Corn, they will cannibalize if they get in the mood. You take your own risk when you house animals together. . Its not the snake breed per-se but the snake itself.

Also, is that a Gravel that you have your snake on or a Sand?
I highly recommend either using Aspen or Newspaper (or paper towel) as a bedding.
I recommend reading this thread on Husbandry and Basic Care FAQ .

starsevol said:

Midnight, I'm so sorry you lost your corn.
But even 2 corns should never be housed together.
They are solitary animals, only coming together in nature to mate.
By forcing them to live together, you would be making them endure stress that they can never escape.
That stress can lead to health problems.
Also, if you have a male and a female, by co-habbing them you are allowing the male access 24/7 to a female that may not be old enough, or big enough to safely lay eggs. That can result in the death of the female.

Plus, even though it's rare, corns CAN be cannabals when co-habbed......

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Oh yeah I learned this all the hard way.
I had only evered owned one snake for a long time my corn.
Then I came into a boa and a cali king I new you didn't put any other with the king and never considered doing so with the boa.
Then I got multiple corns and from things around the net it can be done it can not be.
Well I've lost two corns this way and they will NEVER ever live with another everyone gets their own big beautiful cage. I'm a one cage one snake advocate now for sure.

Hard lessons to learn but learned none the less and passed on to anyone I know who ever asks or wants to own a snake. }:>/

tricksterpup said:

I see a few issues here but it is basically with your Husbandry.

Typically this is the reason why most of us keep are snakes separate from our others. It doesn't matter if its a king or a Corn, they will cannibalize if they get in the mood. You take your own risk when you house animals together. . Its not the snake breed per-se but the snake itself.

Also, is that a Gravel that you have your snake on or a Sand?
I highly recommend either using Aspen or Newspaper (or paper towel) as a bedding.
I recommend reading this thread on Husbandry and Basic Care FAQ .

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It's ground english walnut shell.
Thanks for the info but I'm happy with my substrate and have not had any issues with it to date.