hybrids vs. nonhybrids

ForkedTung said:

I agree, How are you supposed to know what questions to ask when you don't know what questions to ask? Regardless of how anyone feels about it, it's unfortunate but I don't think that most americans research their purchases, it's usually a buy first ask questions later consumer culture.Like KJUN pointed out earlier a jungle corn is NOT a cornsnake, and should NEVER be labelled as one.

How hard is this:

"OOOH that's pretty what is that?"
" Well that's what some people call a jungle corn, but it's actually a hybrid?"
painless.

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That is why they should do their "home work"

Why is this that breeder at fault. When you sell your babies do you explain the hole "how to take care of their new corn" with the new buyer or do you let them go and hope that have read up on the care?

How hard is this: Jungle corn!?! what is that? Then the breeder would have to say that it is a hybrid of corn and emoryi.


I have already said that I agree with Kjun on this "being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too. "

reptile_jones said:

That is why they should do their "home work"
I agree, but in reality most newbies don't, like it or not that's just the way it is

Why is this that breeder at fault. When you sell your babies do you explain the hole "how to take care of their new corn" with the new buyer or do you let them go and hope that have read up on the care?
I think they both share the blame, but the only way I can see the seller being less responsible is if the buyer comes up and says "Gimme that snake right there, I don't care what it is or what it eats, I'm taking it home now Gosh darnit!"
"Yes Sir it's yours, please just don't bite me"

How hard is this: Jungle corn!?! what is that? Then the breeder would have to say that it is a hybrid of corn and emoryi.

See right there! It looks like you didn't do your homework...ps) jungle= corn x king


I have already said that I agree with Kjun on this "being a hybridizer comes with the responsibility to represent them honestly and to do everything in their power to make sure their customers do so, too. "

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YEP! I agree as well

:headbang: :blowhead: Yes jungle is corn X King, I just miss type it. :realhot: I'm only willing to work with emoryi x corns. Not a fan of jungles or any other of the hybrid's

Here is a new one that I found a few months back on RG.com and this guy doesn't call them a hybrid :smash: Sun Burst corn??????

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=65&de=644926

After an email it was discovered to be a corn X sinaloan

reptile_jones said:

:headbang: :blowhead: Yes jungle is corn X King, I just miss type it. :realhot: I'm only willing to work with emoryi x corns. Not a fan of jungles or any other of the hybrid's

Here is a new one that I found a few months back on RG.com and this guy doesn't call them a hybrid :smash: Sun Burst corn??????

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=65&de=644926

After an email it was discovered to be a corn X sinaloan

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That's a pretty striking Sun Burst hybrid.
Now that you're in contact maybe you could link him to this thread?

I still don't see how the responsibility falls onto the breeder to inform everyone that peruses their table that a Jungle Corn is a hybrid...:shrugs:

It seems to me that if I have a table full of snakes, anda thousand people coming by to look at them and ask questions...how can I, as a breeder, be expected to know what everyone is thinking? How can I, as a breeder, be held responsible because someone bought a snake without asking me what it was?

The ONLY way I see the seller as responsible is if the purchaser asks, and the breeder lies. That's it. If the buyer says, "Jungle Corn? Never heard of it. What is it?" and the breeder says, "Oh, it's the newest recessive discovered there's only a few available. These things will be making all the newest morphs in the next 5 years." THAN I see the breeder as responsible.

But if a customer doesn't ask, I certainly can't tell them. I'm sorry, but the term "Jungle Corn" has been being used for long enough, and looks so completely different from any natural, non-hybrid, that it *should* be a no-brainer for a potential customer that is uninformed to simply say, "What is that?"

Really? Some of you think that a breeder is obligated to stand there with a bell and a diagram to explain to every person walking by what a Jungle Corn is? I think that's just ridiculous.

Bottom line, in my opinion...it is ALWAYS the reposnibility of the buyer to KNOW what they are buying before laying money on the table. Don't assume. Don't guess. Ask and KNOW what you are buying. If you don't...that is entirely and completely your fault. Period.

Just my $.02...

To avoid any misgivings, putting a small note that says "Hybrid" or "CornXCali king" shouldn't be too much trouble.
You don't -have- to do it, but it sure will spare future missunderstandings... or minimize them at least

Kokopelli said:

To avoid any misgivings, putting a small note that says "Hybrid" or "CornXCali king" shouldn't be too much trouble.
You don't -have- to do it, but it sure will spare future missunderstandings... or minimize them at least

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No matter what I, as a breeder, do to get the point across...people still don't care what they are buying. Anyone who doesn't care enough to ask about a snake before buying it...probably doesn't care if it's a hybrid. And if they DO care about it being a hybrid...they should have probably asked before they bought it...

Again I am not saying that you're wrong. But there are certain ethics that should be followed and I do think that a breeder should always aspire to minimize misunderstandings and do his best to make sure that every buyer gets what he wants.
And worse case scenario- they still end up complaining? You can invite them to check the label on the box itself which specified without a doubt that it is a hybrid. Heck, it's a great way to "cover" yourself.
Naturally, the more snakes you sell, the more misunderstandings and complaints you shall receive. However the fact that these are bound to occur doesn't mean you shouldn't even -try- to minimize them with a set of simple and not too time consuming steps.

I am not saying you -have- to do this. No one has to do it. I am talking about what is right, as I see it.
And from what I see most companies act in the same way.

In the long run, the damage that can be caused by a large consensus of complaints against a breeder can easily exceed the time he would have had to invest in order to prevent them in the first place.

That's just my opinion though.

Kokopelli said:

Again I am not saying that you're wrong. But there are certain ethics that should be followed and I do think that a breeder should always aspire to minimize misunderstandings and do his best to make sure that every buyer gets what he wants.
And worse case scenario- they still end up complaining? You can invite them to check the label on the box itself which specified without a doubt that it is a hybrid. Heck, it's a great way to "cover" yourself.
Naturally, the more snakes you sell, the more misunderstandings and complaints you shall receive. However the fact that these are bound to occur doesn't mean you shouldn't even -try- to minimize them with a set of simple and not too time consuming steps.

I am not saying you -have- to do this. No one has to do it. I am talking about what is right, as I see it.
And from what I see most companies act in the same way.

In the long run, the damage that can be caused by a large consensus of complaints against a breeder can easily exceed the time he would have had to invest in order to prevent them in the first place.

That's just my opinion though.

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Most companies have to put the simple, no-brainer, common sense info on labels because some idiot didn't use their brain and used the product in a way that it was not intended for. A perfect example...a snow blower with a caution label stating it should not be used on the roof of your house. This is a real label because some moron did haul his snow blower onto his roof, he and it fell through the roof and promptly sued the manufacturer.

The snake in question was labeled properly. I've been to enough expos and have seen plenty of labeled reptiles. And I don't think there are very many of them offered for sale that have every little piece of information about them placed on the label. In fact, you don't see every piece of information because where do you draw the line as to what should be on the label and what is not necessary? What about hatch date, what is it eating and how often, shed schedule, weight... all important information, but is a seller obligated to supply all of it on the label because a buyer doesn't know enough to ask how old the snake is, is it eating and what it's eating, etc?

Susan said:

Most companies have to put the simple, no-brainer, common sense info on labels because some idiot didn't use their brain and used the product in a way that it was not intended for. A perfect example...a snow blower with a caution label stating it should not be used on the roof of your house. This is a real label because some moron did haul his snow blower onto his roof, he and it fell through the roof and promptly sued the manufacturer.

The snake in question was labeled properly. I've been to enough expos and have seen plenty of labeled reptiles. And I don't think there are very many of them offered for sale that have every little piece of information about them placed on the label. In fact, you don't see every piece of information because where do you draw the line as to what should be on the label and what is not necessary? What about hatch date, what is it eating and how often, shed schedule, weight... all important information, but is a seller obligated to supply all of it on the label because a buyer doesn't know enough to ask how old the snake is, is it eating and what it's eating, etc?

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NOPE! Just the main ingredients. ( don't even need the fat/het content)

Again, honestly! how terribly hard is saying or even labeling this?

"Jungle Corn, cornsnake x kingsnake hybrid"

ForkedTung said:

NOPE! Just the main ingredients. ( don't even need the fat/het content)

Again, honestly! how terribly hard is saying or even labeling this?

"Jungle Corn, cornsnake x kingsnake hybrid"

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It's not about difficult. It's about responsibility, and I am of the opinion that it is the buyer's responsibility.

"Jungle Corn" is the accepted trade name for a king X corn hybrid. Why should a breeder feel the need to put anything other than that as a label on an animal?

It's like the idiots that order coffe, and sued McDonalds because they tried to sip it, burned their lip, and dropped the cup. Now you have coffee cups that say "Caution: Contents Hot". That's ridiculous!! It's COFFEE!! It's supposed to be hot!!

Now, I admit readily that the labeling is extremely important. BUT "Jungle Corn" is the accepted trade name for the snake. I wouldn't label a snake, "Amber; Hypo/Caramel", because "Amber" is the accepted name. Anyone that doesn't KNOW what an "Amber" is should probably ask.

Now...I saw the kingsnake.com ad for those Sunburst hybrid-things, and the guy selling them specifically called them a "corn snake morph", and YES...that infuriates me. THAT is a bold faced lie. THAT is the seller's responsibility.

Like Susan said...where does it end? Where do you draw the line on what is "necessary" and what is not? :shrugs:

In a trade where you sell an animal rather than a product, and the seller should care enough for his snakes, I honestly feel he should provide the following:
1- to those who buy, a record of their feeding and shedding schedule in a separate paper.
2- support via email if needed
3- label what the snake is

As long as the snake is being sold along with corn snakes, and the term "jungle" exists as a morph in other snakes I think some clarification should be made, yes.

Tyflier no one is telling you what to do. I have my own ethics and I am explaining what I will be doing and have done in the past when I sold snakes. You can agree, you can disagree... that's fine by me. To me it seems you're very hasty to ditch the responsibility unto the buyer. I care about my snake, I don't want it to end up in the hands of someone who will feel cheated. Cause most odds are that the snake will be sold on or suffer less than optimal care because of it.

Big companies write the specifications of every product they sell on the box. The instruction manual is -inside- the box. There's a difference.
The fact that there are some idiots out there does not mean that I should cease all attempts to minimize said disagreements. You can feel however you want to about that but I really don't understand your vehement insistence on justifying yourself.
You do A, I do B... that's it.

Kokopelli said:

1- to those who buy, a record of their feeding and shedding schedule in a separate paper.
2- support via email if needed
3- label what the snake is

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#2 and #3 are in agreement with my thoughts - even as to life-time support for the buyer via email. I also believe that a care guide SHOULD be provided to thiose needing it - even if it is only available in an electronic format. #1, however, is nothing more that cutsie bunk in my eyes. Feeding and shedding record from someone with 5,000 babies? What a joke to sat that should be required. If you can't trust the breeder when they say "It has been a good feeder," then don't buy it. A "record" is still only as valuable as the breeder's word.

....and, a feeding record is only necessary for health-related problems....and good breeders don't SELL ones with problems! I recommend pet keepers keep such records, but I have NEVER seen where it was beneficial for a pet owner to get such a thing from a seller with hatchlings.

KJ

Well we are in agreement I imagine that most of us will not be selling 5000 babies a year?
Beyond that though, a general statement that says that all babies have eaten at least twice willingly is good enough.
When you sell a very expansive snake though(like a high end morph) I think it is logical to hand such a record as well. You don't have to, but it serves a purpose and shows some measure of seriousness.

Kokopelli said:

Well we are in agreement I imagine that most of us will not be selling 5000 babies a year?
Beyond that though, a general statement that says that all babies have eaten at least twice willingly is good enough.
When you sell a very expansive snake though(like a high end morph) I think it is logical to hand such a record as well. You don't have to, but it serves a purpose and shows some measure of seriousness.

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Well, THAT I agree with completely.
KJ

Well I lucked out this being my first time breeding this past season to land a deal with a tristate pet store chain to move my li'l guys to. My partner and I sexed all the babies and separated the cream/blood crosses and labeled them all. Turns out the store distributing warehouse didn't want any of the particulars anyway so it was just a big waste of time. In the case of selling at shows unless the buyer is a breeder and looking for a particular snake for a project most ppl buy snakes and such for LOOKS not because back in 1867 they crossed with a rat snake and in 1993 crossed with a milk snake and thats going to cause issues down the line. I label everything as do friends of mine who have been breeding for 20 years and more, and its rare that someone will walk away from a snake that catches their eye because of its genetics.

I think it's up to the seller to decide how far they want to go. Personally, I don't do hybrids, but if I did, I would want to make sure the buyer knew it was a hybrid. It's not because I particularly care about that one buyer's amount of knowledge and I do agree you should know what you are getting. But I would care if that person thought it was pure corn, bred it to another corn, and sold the babies as corns and unknowingly put hybrids into the "pure" corn gene pool. So even though it might be a hassle, I would probably make it a point to have "hybrid" or something somewhere on the label. It's not that hard to do, and you can never underestimate how little people know.

I have to disagree with you there mate. Maybe because here in Israel there's a different mentality but in the bible hybrids are technically prohibited for instance. Also, to many here it seems unnatural and wrong. A lot of it has to do with ignorance and prejudice but amongst breeders.... at least here we value pure bred snakes more. Not because they are worth more, but because of the conservation of the species. Some snake populations are getting smaller and smaller in the wild... should we not seek to preserve them in their original form?

It's a complicated thing, but I can say for a certainty that people here prefer pure bred snakes. Even if these look not as good as hybrids

My reply was aimed at Endrin

Kokopelli said:

My reply was aimed at Endrin

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But I get what he is saying though. Its going to be hard to track down the blood line of a snake that lineage that has been in the hobby say for the last 30 years.

How do I know or really any know the truth that my snake isn't a full blooded corn. You can't and none of us can claim any of our animals are true bloods.
Lets take my cross that I have posted pictures of here on this thread. I breed him with a corn in the next few years. Produce some nice looking babies. I then pass them on to some one who also breeds. I tell my person its a cross. They are fine with that.

A few years later they breed one those babies with their corn. It produces some nice babies. but this cross is more intergraded with corns but its still a cross. We go down the line about a few different owners and many generations down the line. Most people at that point will not know what genetics this snake has. but at one point for some reason some one produces some really odd babies and thinks they have a new morph. this is where the problem lies in the hobby. The only way we can keep track of this is through programs like the ACR. But that only works so well if people register their animals.

And right now with a Economic Crisis going on, how many people are going to put the hard cash into that and get animals registered?