Is it true?

I've read a lot of things, but I usually need to see something from several sources before I believe it as fact. If only one source claims something is true, I treat it as one person's belief... So I'm wondering if others can substantiate these claims?

Is it true that Miami's don't grow as large as other corn snakes?
Is it true that Cinders have a different/slimmer body shape than other morphs?
Is it true that Cinders gain reds for a few years, and then slowly lose them again to end up as a grey-on-grey snake? And if this is true, is it also true of Peppermints? Do they eventually turn into solid white snakes? Is it normal for snakes to LOSE color as they age?

What other morph specific differences are you aware of? Not just health problems or issues, but size differences, color changes after their mature color has been reached, etc. Do you know of others??
Thanks!

The only one that I have any personal experience with is the cinders, and yes, mine has a slimmer body than my other snakes. My other cinder is still too young, so I'll have to wait and see if she also develops the slender build.

Hmmmm... interesting. But keeping her color so far?

My cinders are actually hypo cinders. My adult hypo cinder has gotten less red as he's gotten older.

Thanks for the info. I actually just found another thread where a breeder agrees that their Miami's are smaller, as are their Lavenders... and many Okeetees are apparently larger!

Hmmmm .

I have a 6 year old Miami and he is about 5' and about 400g, I also have a 2.5 year old Normal that is almost 6' and 935g and still growing regardless that I feed him one adult mouse every two weeks. He is leveling off, but still, I was worried that he was an anaconda in drag.

albertagirl said:

I've read a lot of things, but I usually need to see something from several sources before I believe it as fact. If only one source claims something is true, I treat it as one person's belief... So I'm wondering if others can substantiate these claims?

Is it true that Miami's don't grow as large as other corn snakes?
Is it true that Cinders have a different/slimmer body shape than other morphs?
Is it true that Cinders gain reds for a few years, and then slowly lose them again to end up as a grey-on-grey snake? And if this is true, is it also true of Peppermints? Do they eventually turn into solid white snakes? Is it normal for snakes to LOSE color as they age?

What other morph specific differences are you aware of? Not just health problems or issues, but size differences, color changes after their mature color has been reached, etc. Do you know of others??
Thanks!

Click to expand...

When you say Miami, do you mean pure wild-caught Miami Locality,

or
"Miami Phase" (any classic of any pattern type with a gray base color),

or Miami phase - or locality stock-
which has been out-crossed to something else of Non-Miami phase/ancestry, and then "brought back" in the F2 generation?

The original (Serpenco) Cinders with the pear-shape cross section, high saddle count,
were mostly bred into simple recessive gene morphs and locality of typical mainland body structure/saddle count
The F2s appear to sometimes have the original cinder body structure and saddle count, others do not. Some peppermints are red and white, others are pink and white.
Likely due to the base stock genetics / traits contained in the non-cinder parentage.
For example, if one bred pure cinder no hets cinder X high white RO,
and got the amel cinders back in the F2 from sib x sib,
they would look different from
pure cinder no hets cinder X orange-base-color amels, produced out of f2s.

All corns (and most snakes) seem to go through changes of color/hue throughout their lifetimes.

Ah, I didn't know the difference between true Miami and Miami Phase. Thanks for the info! I learn something new every day around this forum. I think I meant true Miami, from pure wild caught parentage.

What you say about cinders and peppermints makes perfect sense, and I suppose I should have realized that. Every combination can be reached with different original lines, resulting in different looking snakes though technically of the same morph. Which explains why some are SO much prettier than others. I guess it all comes down to knowing what a breeder is using to produce the morph I'm looking for. Thanks for taking the time to lay that all out so clearly, Dave.

Wild (un-tampered-with) snake species, within a species and within a genus, will naturally develop visible and not so visible differences over time based on geographic isolation, latitude, (and even longitude, as terrain changes from coastal to woodlands to plains to mountains or desert--east to west across the US), climate, and other environmental variables. Including 'time' as it marches into the future.

Products of years (decades?) of captive breeding are snake morphs, some selected for the 'look' of original wild regional phenotypes,...that are less uniformly predictable in the subtleties of their morphological (length, weight, slimness, rotundity, etc.) attributes. Longevity might be mentioned here, too, although it is not 'morphological'.
Even snakes have _lots_ of nitrogenous base pairs.

Butter, eggs, sugar, and flour are all easily recognizable sitting on the kitchen counter.
Once you start baking cakes...the ingredients are not something one can precisely put one's finger on, shall we say, in the final product. Even though the cakes are good, moist, fluffy, sweet,...and very cake-y.
And can even be baked in the shape of a stick of butter or an egg.


Edited to add : I do recognize that I only answered the morphological (size, shape, length, etc.) aspect of the question.
And made the distinction of the natural untouched regional populations (localities)...versus...breeding projects that produce 'locality morphs' as targets, or even by-products.

I was recently contemplating why the paradox/chimera Gummi Bears are my favorite. Probably because they're rare, though not necessarily attractive. Nor particularly tasty.
Cakes and Corn Snakes, so many flavors. Something for everyone.

You can't have them all.

dave partington said:

Cakes and Corn Snakes, so many flavors. Something for everyone.

You can't have them all.

Click to expand...

It's kinda sad. I want them all! But I'm trying to decide on my favorite from each major "color" to basically have a nice range in a smaller number of snakes. None of my friends or family will know what they're missing out on, and I will have to settle for drooling over all of yours. This is PARTLY why I'm wondering about color changes. If I can only have one "red" or "yellow" snake, I want to pick one that's going to stay essentially that color.

I also find genetics interesting, although I have no intention of breeding now or in future. (which almost seems to make me the odd man out???) Because of my background in animal rescue (dogs and cats mostly) and have had to see how many animals are born only to be mistreated, abused, and eventually usually put down, I have strong feelings about who - and why - should and should not be breeding any animals. I will reserve comment here, for now, because I am new to "this town" and know so little about the reptile world in general... but I imagine it is not so different.

By the way Smigon, I love that you have a corn named Lessthanthree. I laugh every time I see that! It's great!

IMO, the gene that shows the most color change in just about every morph combination throughout the snake's lifetime has to be anery. And the variation that can be seen is just you "simple" anery corn alone is amazing. That has to be why it's my favorite gene. While a snake that stays one color throughout it's life is nice, seeing one that changes into a new, just as beautiful color, several times, is even better..IMO.

Susan said:

IMO, the gene that shows the most color change in just about every morph combination throughout the snake's lifetime has to be anery. And the variation that can be seen is just you "simple" anery corn alone is amazing. That has to be why it's my favorite gene. While a snake that stays one color throughout it's life is nice, seeing one that changes into a new, just as beautiful color, several times, is even better..IMO.

Click to expand...

Interesting! I just thought they were all different colors from each other, didn't realize that they also changed as they aged. So I wonder then if my ultramel anery will display this? That would be exciting!

You'll have fun with the ultramel anery. They get this crazy wash of yellow over their necks and heads as they mature.