is this normal...???

i just went to grab my snake...for feeding time....and he just struck at me a bunch of times.....i just washed my hands ...and every time i go to grab him he runs....hes never done this before......i had got im out....but now when i go to pick him up to put him back.....will he bite off my finger ????
undefinedvery confused

and i have the aspen stuff...and when i fed him i think he a peice of it....is that a problem???

Something you really need to do is feed him in a seperate enclosure, with absolutely no subtrate, because if ingested, it can cause complications, and even cause death.

Has he ever shown any aggressive behavior before? How old is he?
Also, do not grab him, the best thing to do is run your hand underneath him to support him.

Please tell me that you don't feed on aspen substrate...

ingestion of that will cause impaction. stricking at you sounds normal...how long has it been since his last meal? Is he ready to shed? Are you moving fast? I know that you said you washed your hands, but the scent of the mouse could still be there.

all set now... i feed him on paper towels....but he had aspen on him when he went in the box....then he ate....gtg ttyl bye
Jason

If I were you, I would try and remove any substrate that is sticking to your snake before you feed him just to be sure that he doesn't ingest it.

Just curious, I always read the same thing "don't feed on a substrate". How many folks out there have ever had a problem with a corn due to substrate ingestion? I must have read hundreds of threads advising the same thing, but I don't ever recall reading about someones corns having suufered from ingesting substrate. I am sure that the large breeders who have hundreds (if not thousands) of snakes do not feed in seperate enclosures. Also, Kathy Love's book is always being quoted as the bible (And I agree it is), but I can find nowhere in the book where she mentions feeding in a seperate container to avoid substrate ingestion. She does mention feeding in another container to avoid having the snake associate a hand coming in the tank with feeding. So what I'm getting at is...is this "substrate ingestion" thing an old wifes tale (or old herpers tale)?

I know that some will start flaming me right away, but I do think this is something that should be investigated and talked about. I check the validity of email I get on websites like truthorfiction.com, just figured I'd investigate the validity of this as well.

Mike

It makes sense logically not to feed on substrate but I guess in the wild they wouldn't have any choice, but we don't know how many die of impaction in the wild... hmmm I dont know the answer but won't take the risk! interesting question...

I agree with Cindy, the question should have been "is it worth the risk".

I would say no every time, i would rather feed my snake's outside their viv with paper towel's or newspaper down.

Cindy said:

but I guess in the wild...

Click to expand...

This comment is a huge pet peeve of mine. They're NOT in the wild, dammit. They're in a controlled enviroment... with controlled temps, and controlled feeding.

I mean I suppose we can not provide heat and just throw some dirt in there for substrate, and never clean the poop (cause they don't clean up after themselves in the wild)... but you get my point.

We do not use cedar because it's toxic to snakes. We (most of us) feed F/T instead of live because it's safer for the snakes well being. They don't have that choice in the wild. We do it to keep them safe, so why would we take the chance an accidental injestion of a substrate that might do them harm?

Always feed on paper towel, or simply just in a plastic box (something you can wash to prevent bacteria growth).

Now repeat after me. CAP-TI-VI-TEEEE. lol

That is all.

unless that is what you keep your snake on in the permanent viv.

I feed all my snakes in a different enclouser with out substrate of any kind...and at the moment I have 8 hungry mouths to feed. usually takes me aobut 2 hours to feed everyone as I only have 3 extra boxes for feeding. And, I wash out each box before putting another corn into it.

Spirit said:

This comment is a huge pet peeve of mine. They're NOT in the wild, dammit. They're in a controlled enviroment... with controlled temps, and controlled feeding.

I mean I suppose we can not provide heat and just throw some dirt in there for substrate, and never clean the poop (cause they don't clean up after themselves in the wild)... but you get my point.

We do not use cedar because it's toxic to snakes. We (most of us) feed F/T instead of live because it's safer for the snakes well being. They don't have that choice in the wild. We do it to keep them safe, so why would we take the chance an accidental injestion of a substrate that might do them harm?

Always feed on paper towel, or simply just in a plastic box (something you can wash to prevent bacteria growth).

Now repeat after me. CAP-TI-VI-TEEEE. lol

That is all.

Click to expand...

*Turns on cold water and gets the hose* :grin01:

ok, calm down Spirit...It was just a comparison. All that was said was "in the wild snakes eat on the dirt and possibly ingest whatever is on the ground...And that we don't know how many die from this." she wasn't saying that because snakes to it in the wild we should to. I agree with you. I would not take the risk no matter what. Even if I was in a hurry to get the snakes fed, I would either be late for where ever I was going, or wait and feed till I had the time.

cornman1979 said:

I agree with Cindy, the question should have been "is it worth the risk".

Click to expand...

That's my point exactly! We are saying "is it worth the risk" when we don't even know if a risk exists.

Lets use the big breeders as an example. They NEED their snakes in order to provide income. I don't know of any that feed in seperate containers. So your (collectively) saying that hese breeders are risking their snakes and their income? I bet if you polled them, none ever lost a snake due to substrate ingestion. If they lost snakes due to this, they wouldn't feed in their enclosures.

Mike

tai_pan1 said:

That's my point exactly! We are saying "is it worth the risk" when we don't even know if a risk exists.

Click to expand...

But why take the chance? There are substrates that clearly have warnings that accidental ingestion may or may not be safe, so surely it's had to happen at some point or another. Snake eats wood chip, poop becomes impacted (or whatever the symptom might be), snake gets sick and dies.

I mean I don't know of anyone who's died from washing their dishes with motor oil, but that doesn't mean I'm about to try it.

and here is something else to chew on...what do big breeders use as substrate? Do they use aspen, wood chips, o rnews paper? The news paper would be a lot cheaper and easier to clean. if they use the paper, then there are no risks involved in eating on the substrate. so before we go saying that big breeders do this...lets find out what they use.

Interesting question Tai_pan...

I think first we must go back to the basics. The reason (presumably) snakes and many other reptiles lay so many eggs, is because most will not survive. Hence "survival of the fittest". Now with that being said, YES, we do "artificially" keep many many snakes alive that simply wouldn't make it for whatever reason!

Spirit-

Captive herptoculture is definately still in it's infancy! As for the reason the "wild" snakes are mentioned so often is quite simple. We as keepers, if you will, we try to duplicate the "wild" as close as possible. Snakes are not domesticated creatures such as dogs or house cats. If snakes are not "happy", if they are stressed or completely out of their element they will not breed and may not survive at all! There are many species that are still not yet breeding very frequently or some not at all because we have not figured out the right mix for housing, temps, humidity, etc.

I have to agree with Tai_pan here. Large or even moderate size breeding facilities certainly can't and don't feed 100's or 1000's of snakes in serperate containers. Right now, I'm feeding roughly 40 snakes and we are just now getting times down to about 4 hours. (That includes spot cleaning cages and washing/refilling water dishes between TWO of us)

I have some snakes that are shy about eating and won't eat in front of us. Do I leave the mouse in the feeding container over night? No, I put a cheapo bar coaster in the normal housing and place the mouse on top. The hopes are that the snake can eat the mouse off the coaster and not have to worry about consuming substrate. However, the truth of the matter is some of these very same shy snakes tend to drag their meal all around before they consume it! Thus, surely ingesting some aspen along the way. I for one have not had any problems with impaction.

Another point of interest may be...

Corn snakes in the "wild" eat a variety of things. Some snakes may not eat for weeks or even months but then when they find a meal they will literally gourge themselves! Meals may consist of small rodents, small birds (maybe eggs as well), a variety of lizards. It's also a know fact that corn snakes will also eat carion in the wild (dead animals, road kill)

My personal conclusion is this. While it's said not to feed in the normal housing upon any sort of loose substrate, this is just a precautionary measure. Why create a "possible" problem if it can simply be avoided all together? I think that ingesting substrate is more of a concern for hatchlings rather than yearlings or adults just on a sheer size concern. Obviously a full grown snake will have an easier time passing a small piece of aspen rather than a hatchling!

Last but not least. If you took a poll of large scale breeding operations, I think you find that many don't use a loose substrate at all. Many use newspaper instead, which there is no concern for ingesting small pieces. Drop a live or dead mouse in and move on to the next cage. In the morning they come back to remove any prey item not eaten.

I don't much care for newspaper substrate, myself. But then again I have a "managable" collection so far. Eventually it could become so much of a hassle and so time consuming that I could change my views and switch!

This is a good topic of discussion. I'll be interested in seeing some other views as well as some input from all you larger scale breeder, you know who you are!

Regards,
Quigs

pcar said:

so before we go saying that big breeders do this...lets find out what they use.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point! Your saying we should investigate. So am I. Why perpetuate a possibly incorrect statement? We should investigate. I still know of no one who has lost a snake due to ingested substrate.

Spirit says "why take the chance?" My question is "are you taking a chance?"

ok, you didn't get everything I said...And Quigs repeated it...

LARGE BREEDERS TEND TO USE NEWSPAPER

This makes feeding and cleaning fast and no fear of posible ingestion. What I was saying to investigate is what the breeders use as substrate...not investigate whether you can feed on loose substrate.

I have 8 corns at the moment, and feed all seperatly and in different containers. I use Aspen for substrate. If I were to use newspaper, I might feed in their enclouser so that feeding is faster. But, using newspaper, you have to change it a lot more than aspen or other loose substrate.

Quigs,

I have to do the same thing sometimes with my shy feeders, except I usually use an old toilet paper roll and put the pinky inside. Just feeding my yearlings and under can take me several hours. I will often feed my larger snakes in their enclosure (I use aspen). The biggest drawback I've found is the occassional time where my hand is viewed as a large mouse (LOL). I have a blizzard born in July who will not eat outside of her container or with her container lid off. I've tried overnight in a seperate container and she ignores it. I've tried in her container without the lid, and she ignores it. If I put the fuzzy in there with her and put the lid on, I can come back in 5 minutes and she is happily digesting her dinner. Works every time.

Mike

pcar said:

ok, you didn't get everything I said...And Quigs repeated it...

LARGE BREEDERS TEND TO USE NEWSPAPER

Click to expand...

No, I got it.

You advocated investigating. I advocate investigating as well. You investigated and discovered that large breeders use newsprint. Why are you so unwilling to investigate if substrate ingestion is really a risk? It may very well be a risk, I don't know. That's why I advocate investigating the matter. I would much rather know for a fact that the advice I'm giving to someone is factual rather than just repeating what might be an old wives tale.

I too try to avoid feeding my smaller snakes on aspen "just in case", but I would rahter not go by just in case, I'd rather know for sure.

Does anyone know of any snakes that have died due to substrate impaction?

Mike