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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Sex-linked pattern aberrancies?
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:50 PM   #11
Paleosmith
It is absolutely possible that zigzag is sex-linked (partially or completely). There are known examples of sex-linked traits in insects, mammals and birds, but there are no proven examples of sex-linked traits in reptiles or amphibians that I am aware of. I could easily be mistaken though. It's also quite possible that the decreased levels of expression in the males in your clutch is simply by chance. I hope you will proceed with your breeding plans and let us know what you discover
 
Old 09-17-2020, 10:10 PM   #12
Shiari
I definitely will!
 
Old 09-17-2020, 10:31 PM   #13
Paleosmith
Thanks for your replies Shiari. I'm sure you are already aware that it has been previously suggested that zigzag could be an incubation-linked pattern aberration. While I don't personally know enough to have an opinion on that, it is well established that incubation temperature can affect all sorts of things (e.g., gender) in many reptiles, and this leaves me wondering if your clutch of eggs was stuck together with some on top and some beneath (which could contribute to small differences in temp.) ...or if you separated your eggs after they were laid. If your eggs were kept stuck together (and were layered to some degree), I wonder if it is possible that temp. differences could explain the gender-skewed distribution (potential gradient) of pattern mutations in your clutch. Fascinating stuff! I wish I had paid more attention when I took genetics
 
Old 09-18-2020, 12:11 AM   #14
Shiari
As corn sex is not linked to temperature, that should not be a factor. The eggs were clustered but the zigzagged females came from the top, middle, and bottom. They were also put in the incubator at the same time as another clutch with no pattern aberrancies at all, and aside from one kinked baby in another clutch, there was no other real abnormal patterns in *any* of the other clutches.
 
Old 09-18-2020, 09:49 AM   #15
Paleosmith
Thanks for your explanation. It was worth considering. Back to the drawing board I suppose. There must be some way to sort out the heritability mechanism for zigzag. I'd be interested to hear any suggestions people might have. Hopefully people will reply to this thread with their experiences and we can recognize some trend (if we manage to get enough responses).
 
Old 09-18-2020, 10:12 AM   #16
Paleosmith
...and I'm not absolutely convinced personally, that incubation temperature plays no role in sex determination in corns. Certainly the gender of embryos is genotypically determined, but there are records of other colubrids in which incubation temp (or fluctuations) can cause gender-reversal. I thought this was a good explanation:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=128806.

I think the take home is that we still have a lot to learn about these animals (thankfully. The recently discovered sex chromosome complexity of henophidians is a good example. I don't think any biologist would have guessed that one 10 years ago!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982217308527
 
Old 09-20-2020, 06:26 PM   #17
MysticExotics
Shairi, that's interesting. I was talking to someone else about this, who said it appears to be true about it being sex linked.
Looking back, all of the aberrant pattered babies I have produced or owned have been female.

This is the last one I produced, two years ago.
In 2011, when I started my Miami Tessera projects, one clutch had 3 aberrant babies, all females.
 
Old 09-21-2020, 05:05 PM   #18
Paleosmith
Apologies if this sounds contrary... my only interest is in exchanging info and hopefully learning something. I do however, think I can offer some food for thought on this topic. While it is possible that zigzag is sex-linked and was only associated with females in your specific clutches/experience, it is highly unlikely. I have a male zigzag in my collection. I just purchased a female zigzag from a breeder in PA who kept back multiple male and female zigzags from that same clutch for breeding... and while it seems to be gone now, there were male Ultramel Aztecs listed for sale on the VMS site until very recently (I purchased one of the females from the clutch). And again, all of the newborns in Shiari's clutch display some degree of pattern aberrancy. Where one draws the line between aberrant enough to call it a zigzag or an aztec seems to be ambiguous. I have seen sources that say zigzag and aztec are the same thing, sources that say they are separate morphs, and sources that say Aztec is the refined form of zigzag. In short, the jury is still out on this mystery. Is it possible that there are clutches of sex-linked zigzags in which only one gender is aberrantly patterned.... AND clutches in which male and female zigzags are produced in a single clutch? Yes, sure, incredibly doubtful but perhaps. Genetics is ridiculously complex at times. However, the odds of that being the case are astronomically small. I hope you prove me wrong and we all learn something in the process but I would strongly suggest that based on the evidence we have currently, zigzag is not sex-linked and you would be better off directing your efforts trying to determine if it is inherited in some other polygenetic fashion.
 
Old 09-21-2020, 09:42 PM   #19
Shiari
Okay, look. You are not merely sounding contrary. You are outright *being* contrary.

Not all zigzag is heritable. Most of the time it's just a pattern whoopsie.

These individuals have lavender heritage, and specifically a line that is VERY known for throwing zigzags.

Not one of the males would ever be called a zigzag or partial zigzag. All the females but one are.

Females are genetically ZW. Males are genetically ZZ. Temperature does NOT play a role in sex in corns, people would have noted that by now and as I have raised clutches both at the 78-80 range and the 83 to 85 range and never seen a particular sex be dominant over the other in the last 10 years, this is NOT a thing.

If only the females are showing any real degree of pattern abnormality beyond the norm, as many corns have a funky saddle or two, then there may be something linked to the Z chromosome. As males have 2 Zs, then the unaffected chromosome could be having a suppression effect.

There's a reason I put a question mark on this, I'm not saying it's absolutely 100% what's going on. It's a curiousity and speculation and I'm going to be breeding this male again next year to see what happens.

Are we DONE yet?
 
Old 09-21-2020, 10:24 PM   #20
Paleosmith
Unlike you, I am more interested in learning than being right... so yeah we are done. Supposedly this is a site for conversations about corn snake related issues, not a site where those with the most posts feel free to bully others and evidently are threatened by facts that don't necessarily agree with their opinions... opinions based on limited knowledge, conjecture, and anecdotal evidence.
 

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