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Live or F/T?

Mice with fur suffer horribly being frozen alive. It takes quite a while for a furred animal to die. Its very quick for pinkies.
I really hope its pinkies you are freezing .....

Mice can think and feel, just like a dog or a cat. They can't reason, but they can feel pain, and they can suffer.

Knowing that something you are doing is torturing a harmless creature, and simply not caring about their suffering, makes that "person" a monster. I don't know if God exists, but I really do hope there is a special place in Hell for monsters like that....
 
Iguanagirl8662 said:
No how else would you prefer I kill it? It's either I freeze it or feed it to my snake live.
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CO2
Cervical dislocation

pick one

I thought the reason you refused to use frozen mice was because your mother wouldn't let you put mice in her freezer. Now she allows you to use the freezer to torture mice to death for your snake? How lovely...........
 
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FunkyRes said:
While I fully agree that f/t is safer, there seems to be a religious like belief that live should never be used.
No one kills their prey for them in the wild[...]

Injuries are very unlikely if the keeper pays attention and removes prey that the snake is not interested in eating, and injuries from rodents are far far far more likely from rats than they are from mice.
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I"m going for the plunge and mentioning what works for me. So far I've seen many people get eaten up here for feeding live, but I'm going to say what I have to say anyway (aren't I brave?). For some people and some snakes things vary, wouldn't we all agree? Every one and every snake is different.

Before I ever got my corn, (as some of you already know) I worked at a pet store. Our snakes were fed live. We had multiple snakes and multiple snakes that ate differently. I don't quite know the logic behind why things were that way, but I later drew the conclusion and assumption that two of the pythons and a few of the boas and kings would only eat live, so it became a "universal" compromise: utilitarianism for snakes. :)
It was interesting to watch the first few times. As time went on, however, I discovered my passion for snakes and became more informed. Then I made sure they were offered frozen many a time. They wouldn't eat. I even let some of them go hungry for TWO WEEKS! and they still wouldn't eat. I ended up feeding them all live. I brought the dangers and my concern to the owner. She sat me down and explained it was their snakes and they did it their way. She also told me, "if you observe the feedings, you are able to react if something goes awry." (Yeh, squeal in pain for the snake... I don't know what she thought I would do if something went wrong... put my hand in front of the face of the feasting snake who's undergoing a confrontation with its meal? Sounds real smart. lol.)

But that was then and this is now... her rationale and mine. I DO *deep breath* feed my corn live prey (he's had a lizard and a gerbil pinkie, but mostly mice). Before people freak out, he had refused frozen meals to the point of starvation (maybe not starvation, but lengths of time that I'm not comfortable with) off and on for a month or two. I switched to live thinking/observing that it fixed the problem multiple times. The feedings were monitored and the prey was smaller than what he could've had. After he ate his first live fuzzy, the next feeding he ate a frozen; no problem. The following feeding, he refused the frozen for an 19 day spurt (and of course, I wouldn't be noting this observation if he'd been shedding). I later caved and bought another live fuzzy. He ate it. This happened in several other instances, so now he's just on live.

I suppose I've 180ed. I went from a raving anti-live advocate to someone who now owns a snake who eats live. (picky little thing...:cool: ) I guess I've tried to rationalize it now that it's what Sampson eats. I like that hunting is stimulating and provides a more natural life for him. There's a lot of differences (obviously) from nature to captivity; even though he's been in captivity all his life, I like that parts of his life are more natural now. And it just works. People may not like it but it works for me and my snake (and perhaps just this particular snake and not my eventual-others).

As I said before, some people are different and so are some snakes. I hope that we can all accept each other's differences and display the tolerance we all have... :cheers:
 
Garrett, you may well just have the rare snake that doesnt take frozen. If I were you I would work trying to convert, but if that's what he wants there's not a whole lot you can do.

I think personally that the reason pet shops feed live, and tell people to feed live, is that it keeps people coming back every week and buying something. They don't care about the snakes welfare as much as door traffic. Rodentpro and TMF puts a huge dent in their bottom line.
 
Actualy I personaly work in a pet store where the only snakes we sell are those that are on f/t. They have only every had one that had to be fed live (forget what type it was but aparently had some nice sized fangs and a very mild venum). Other then that one snake they are all on f/t. We do sell live mice for feeders but we all totaly recomend feeding f/t, but as you all know there are many that will do there own thing no matter what they are told is best.
 
When I worked at petco the only snakes that ate live were the balls, with so many others to take care of we didn't have the time to tease feed them.
 
Live feeding and co-hab are so closely linked IMO... Apart from the lazy aspect, it's always keepers with limited experience who advocate it. And even when the pitfalls are pointed out they will argue to the death..... I'll probably keep answering posts that mention either, but I know the OP will ignore any advice...I do it as I hope that other newbs will see that more people are against it than for and they are the ones with lucid arguments not just an opinion and five minutes experience...
 
snakewispera snr said:
I do it as I hope that other newbs will see that more people are against it than for and they are the ones with lucid arguments not just an opinion and five minutes experience...
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That's as good a reason as any. I've recently posted in a slitting eggs thread hoping to discourage new breeders from getting impatient with their clutch and cutting into them.
I think a lot of people will already have their minds made up and nothing you say can dissuade them, it's the same with cohab and feeding live. Until they have a bad experience themselves, they will unfortunately find enough people who say it's OK to convince themselves.
Feeding live - I've done it but only with snakes that won't take F/T and I do my best to convert them because sooner or later most will eat F/T if you keep trying.
It could be true constricting them is good exercise for a gravid female, to me it just seems there's less dangerous ways to condition a gravid girl - a proven female producer is probably the snake in my collection I'd be least likely to want to risk feeding live to.
 
FunkyRes said:
I also bet that a lot of very experienced "big name" herpers make use of live who just don't speak up about it because they've rather not be told that they are bad people for doing so.
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If you mean, by "big name," breeders who are feeding a thousand or more snakes, yes, many do feed live. What is economical in terms of time and often cost to them doesn't mean it's the safest way to handle feedings for the majority of us, pet owners, with a mere 20 or so snakes. If you have that few, it's more important to avoid preventable accidents rather than feed as fast as possible with as little waste as possible.
 
Nanci said:
If you mean, by "big name," breeders who are feeding a thousand or more snakes, yes, many do feed live. What is economical in terms of time and often cost to them doesn't mean it's the safest way to handle feedings for the majority of us, pet owners, with a mere 20 or so snakes. If you have that few, it's more important to avoid preventable accidents rather than feed as fast as possible with as little waste as possible.
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Plus I dare say 'big name breeders' have a bit of experience......
This is a cornsnake site, and I don't mean this condescendingly, but cornsnakes are generally considered to be a first time snake. So there are a lot of new to snakes people on here....Info,IMO is given out with them in mind.....Even so cohab and live feeding, no matter how long you have had snakes is not without risk...
 
snakewispera snr said:
Plus I dare say 'big name breeders' have a bit of experience......
This is a cornsnake site, and I don't mean this condescendingly, but cornsnakes are generally considered to be a first time snake. So there are a lot of new to snakes people on here....Info,IMO is given out with them in mind.....Even so cohab and live feeding, no matter how long you have had snakes is not without risk...
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From my point of view, even new keepers should be presented with the facts and reasons, rather than just being told "do this and don't do this".

I'm also not fond of the trend of labeling corns as "the newbie snake".
Yes, they are excellent for new keepers to the hobby, but so are many species. There are some species like ATB's and GTP's that a newbie should stay away from, but there are many many many species that are extremely easy to care for with little or no previous experience.
 
I've never met anyone on here that I constantly disagree with, but you seem to be the exception...I'm sure you post and don't think,first..... I don't like labelling corns as a 'starter' snake either...But they are seen that way.. And so many people post saying 'I'm getting my first snake, it's a corn' Why...ITS A CORNSNAKE SITE....
If I went to any number of sites...kings, milks, etc. I bet I would find the same....except they would have a king or a milk etc. as their first snake. But that is besides the point... I would still say that IMO this is what I would do......After all I have given reasons for my statements not just my opinion.....Who are you do you even own a snake...I don't know. So your opinion is worthless to me...Facts are what I am looking for, or evidence.....I was going to pull you up on freezing to death being painful but I decided not to. But as we're at it..... Being cold is uncomfortable not painful... Your core temperature goes down and hypothermia sets in..... Anyone who has had hypothermia will tell you they started to feel warm and comfortable and thought it would be a good idea to snuggle down where they were.....People who freeze to death generally have smiles on their faces when they are found.... And like I asked you earlier...... Plaese don't spout BS and gloss it up like fact...It might influence a new comer to endanger their snakes.....
 
The freezing hurts at first, before the numbness is all. I have stuck my hands bare into snow many times, and stuck myself to a freezer once as a child, and it *burns* until the cold really kicks in. Then it's all fine and dandy.

That said, I just tried live out of desperation (next is finding that lizard scent...) for a snake that hasn't eaten in I think 6 weeks now. She lay next to it for about 20 minutes, while it crawled against her. Completely uninterested. ... So I gave the pink to another snake.

I wish now I'd stuck it in the freezer as my bloodred literally ate the pink live and I could hear it squeaking in him for a bit. >_< I am completely traumatised and refuse to feed live to any snake again.
 
I only feed f/t because I had only owned my first corn (actually my daughter owned it) less than a month before we took it to a vet because of non-feeding issues. She spends a good 15 minutes lecturing me on why I should never feed live and boy, did that lecture do wonders for me. Let me tell you that woman was passionate about her position :D
 
Shiari said:
The freezing hurts at first, before the numbness is all. I have stuck my hands bare into snow many times, and stuck myself to a freezer once as a child, and it *burns* until the cold really kicks in. Then it's all fine and dandy.
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Please, tell us more about your experience with freezing yourself to DEATH.
 
I will quote myself too.

"The freezing hurts AT FIRST"

At first means "in the beginning". I seem to have then said that numbness kicks in, intimating that it no longer hurts.

If the pinkies are in a thick plastic container, something that won't get terribly cold before they die, then it won't hurt. But if they are in something that goes cold quick, or are just in a bag per say, the *contact* will hurt. Go sit on a frozen lake bare bottomed and them tell me it didn't hurt for a little bit.
 
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