Info for would be corn breeders

Susan said:

First, it isn't "genocide" as he isn't killing off the entire species, just the hatchlings that do not fit his qualifications. It has just been bad luck that none in those particular clutches met his requirements.

If a breeder is selectively breeding for temperament and for food preference, culling those that don't fit those qualifications is what needs to be done. When first produced, bloodreds (I'm pretty sure it was the bloodreds, but may have been another morph) were known for being lizard eaters and refusing pinkies. It took years of selective breeding and outcrossing to produce hatchlings that would readily eat pinkies out of the egg.

I am sure there are many breeders of all snake species, that are selectively breeding for the above mentioned traits. I know I would prefer to keep those that were easier to handle and that ate pinkies right out of the egg.

And what about those hatchlings that won't eat anything offered? Is it wrong to cull them (euthanize, if you prefer) or would you rather let them suffer and starve to death? What about other deformities? Was it wrong to cull this hatchling?

"But there's a difference between physical deformities and behavior/temperament/food preference/etc." Look at it this way, if man didn't selectively breed for ALL desirable qualities, we wouldn't have ANY domestic animals. There would be no dogs as they would all still be wolves, horses would be wild, pigs would still be wild boar, cattle would still be wild, sheep, goats, fowl of all kinds, etc would all still be as their wild predecessors and we would still be hunter-gatherers.

No one is forcing you to cull anything you produce, but don't knock those that are trying to improve the cb specimens.

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying but killing nearly 100% for several years for doing what comes natural to them? Something sounds very wrong with that. I understand culling problem animals to strengthen the bloodline, but I'm afraid he is setting his bar way too high. Ask any Gray Banded breeder and they will tell you most want to eat lizards, but can be switched to pinkies without a lot of effort. Cal Kings also are full of spunk as I mentioned before. If the snakes were kinked or had some other deformity, fine. But those snakes were being exactly as they should have been. Sorry 100%, for several years? That's like killing puppies because they peee on the floor. It's their nature to do that! Patience and proper husbandry will fix those problems.

Chip can set the bar wherever he wants, they are his snakes. If he says he had to cull them for nasty temperaments I believe him, I have handled many baby Calkings that are not "spunky" but easily handled and if that's what he needs to be able to sell it at his pet store, then it is his right to set the point where they meet his standards and cull the rest.
How many baby cal kings are there out there? It's not like there are not already a ton.
Corns too are just becoming a dime a dozen. I had some normals priced as $12 - $15 at the last herp expo. Still had most of them the end of the day, luckily found another vendor to take the lot at the end of the day. Maybe that's what sparked this thread my frustration with how many cheap normals, amels, aneries I saw and the fact they are becoming "disposable" pets like a goldfish, better in a way for the breeder to cull them before they have to be sold for so little value.
There have been a few threads where people speak out against culling and how every hatchling deserves to live, but when every hatchling lives it brings down both the value and the quality of the snake as a species.
Genocide is a bit strong word, lol

Jen I agree that Chip can do whatever he wants with his snakes. That's not the arguement. I think he is wanting King Snakes to behave like Corn Snakes!
I'm glad he gave up on the Gray-bands personally. If you don't know how to raise them then don't bring them into this world. I have been breeding Kind Snakes for quite a while, and they are what they are KING SNAKES. I guess you have to be a king snake lover to understand, lol. No hard feelings toward anyone here not even Chip. But I think I'm just stating the obvious. I probably should have said, stop breeding King Snakes, instead of snakes in general. That's just how I see it, as a person who goes thru great lengths to get his Kings to feed on mice, and get used to being held. Most of the time a Kingsnake bites it's cause they are underfed. Not all the time but most of the time. King snakes have high motabolisms and take in a lot more than corns. I am only speaking from experience. When I read nearly 100% for several years, come on! Something is wrong there, sorry.

I like king snakes, but I can see how hard it would be to sell one that is writhing and musking all the time and if you are operating a pet store you probably would have better luck with the ones that make good pets, you know? Agreed they have a much different and more high strung temperament, but flighty and nasty are two different things. I have two MBK, one is a little musker and would make a horrible pet for someone that wanted to handle him all the time. Also have a couple of hondos and sinaloan milksnakes, My other MBK and the milks are flighty but handleable and don't bite, and they all take mice. I never see anyone offering feeder lizards for sale. For someone that can catch their own or acquire them I am sure they help to get some snakes going but realistically they need to take mice for most people to be able to own them. I understand and appreciate kings and I think Chip does as well, it's just I understand his side- he does have a business to run. For most of us it's a fun hobby and we can have a bit more leniency with what we need to cull and more time to work with the biter/muskers.

First off, two years is not several years. Before the last two years, I hit almost 50% some clutches on Cal kings with decent temperaments. There is no doubt in my mind that breeding the most docile individuals to each other can "create a better king." As for graybands, the few that will readily take f/t mice are the only ones that should be used for breeding. Had I started with parent stock that had more willingness to eat, I feel sure my ratio would have been higher. But I bought the prettiest hatchlings Lee Abbott had, rather than focusing on what is more important.
As for genocide, would you consider someone breeding snakes for king cobra food genocide? What about having a mouse colony? I'll repeat, I do NOT enjoy feeding off hatchling reptiles. But I'd prefer that to sub-standard genes being passed or selling the snakes for $5 to go to likely terrible homes.

I think that it is an important point to be made that as a breeder, you will occasionally have to cull/euthanize/watch die babies.
Not everyone can do that. Not everyone WANTS to do that.

People who breed because the babies will be SO CUTE may find themselves being traumatized by watching a deformed hatchling slowly starve to death, or a hatchling come out with a painful deformity.
You need to maintain a type of detachment from the babies, yet still care for and love them. It isn't for everybody.

elrojo said:

First off, two years is not several years. Before the last two years, I hit almost 50% some clutches on Cal kings with decent temperaments. There is no doubt in my mind that breeding the most docile individuals to each other can "create a better king." As for graybands, the few that will readily take f/t mice are the only ones that should be used for breeding. Had I started with parent stock that had more willingness to eat, I feel sure my ratio would have been higher. But I bought the prettiest hatchlings Lee Abbott had, rather than focusing on what is more important.
As for genocide, would you consider someone breeding snakes for king cobra food genocide? What about having a mouse colony? I'll repeat, I do NOT enjoy feeding off hatchling reptiles. But I'd prefer that to sub-standard genes being passed or selling the snakes for $5 to go to likely terrible homes.

Click to expand...

I guess I've just been around King Snake people all my life and I'm just shocked that you would kill so many off when there is nothing wrong with them. What if I wanted snakes with blue eyes and I kept killing all the ones that didn't have blue eyes, which would be 100% of them becuase they are not genetically wired to give blue eyes. Yes I agree that the better the Parents the better the offspring. I do that myself! I keep the best of the babies for breeding stock and sell off the rest. I don't kill them. I have culled off many unfit and abnormally defected animals. Lee Abbott is one of the top breeders around! I'm sure there was nothing wrong with those snakes you got. You just want them to behave like something they are not. I have a large Kingsnake collection. I can't think of one that bites just to bite. Some have very strong feeding responses and if they smell mouse, look out! But I hold all of them regularly for brief periods of time. Look I didn't want to detract from the original topic, I was just really taken back when I read your post. I forwarded this thread to another long time King Snake expert I know and he was blown away too! I'll step down since neither is going to change the others mind. GOOD luck with whatever you choose to breed. I hope they come out exactly as you want them.

Just to throw this out though. Breeding is a personal with thing with personal objectives. To some a certain look might prevail over temperment or feeding. To others feeding might be the winning goal etc. My point is no matter what someone is doing in their breeding program someone else can perceive it to be wrong. But I have seen people who raise kingsnakes and all their snakes, hatchlings included, were very easy going and handleable. (Now I must admit I have no idea the amount of time they may have spent before they considered them able to be brought out for sale, or how many got culled), nor did I ask.
But I don't think we should criticise those whose opinions differ from our own philosophy. I notice as a group we do tend to be quick to do that.

Lee has excellent graybands, I'm not disputing that nor besmirching his name in any way. But I chose solely with my eyes, a mistake I wouldn't make again. The Cal kings babies have varied a ton in temperament. I'm not asking for the animal to "behave like something it isn't," I'm being picky...-picky about an animal that is VERY common in the hobby.
FWIW, I have a Cal king that will bite just to bite, and every time, I keep him around just because he's good for clean-up, and he's become part of the "family." I don't breed him, and wouldn't if he was the only male I had. I'm not telling other people to use my methods on everything they produce, but some amount of culling is needed and usually lacking -whether out of greed or inherent sympathy for the weak.

elrojo said:

I'm not telling other people to use my methods on everything they produce, but some amount of culling is needed and usually lacking -whether out of greed or inherent sympathy for the weak.

Click to expand...

Those animals were not weak. They were perfectly normal.

They weren't meant to live in captive conditions on a diet of mice. You can split hairs all you want, but there is no doubt in my mind if you kept selective breeding for mouse eaters you would have a better stock of GBKs. I do the same thing with hognose now, but with better survival numbers.

I've been refraining from posting my opinion about this topic because i'm new to keeping snakes and i probably don't know what i'm talking about, but i feel very strongly about this. Culling an otherwise healthy normal clutch simply because they do not meet your standards is cruel and inhumane.

I understand the desire to produce docile snakes, but you need to do it in a patient, responsible, and humane way. Breed a docile pair, keep the best hatchlings, and rehome/sell what you deem undesirable. Remember that when you breed snakes (or any animal), you have to take responsibility for the well being of the offspring. If you can't rehome/sell them and end up with too many snakes to care for, then you need to stop breeding them and get your collection under control. Culling what *you* consider undesirable is extremely heartless and selfish. Personally, i like my kingsnakes with a little attitude. That's what makes them kingsnakes!

I don't know why some people choose to ignore the basic rule of pet ownership that we were all taught, which is to take full responsibility for your pets. If you're breeding snakes to make a buck rather than the love for the animal, then you're breeding snakes for the wrong reason. If you love the animal, then i don't understand how you can cull them for being what they were born to be. Culling them in the name of selective breeding is just a convenient excuse for not taking responsibility.

Again, i understand that people want docile and easy to feed snakes, but you need to approach the breeding aspect of it in a patient and humane way, which may take many generations. Culling is a necessary evil, but we should not compare breeding snakes to make better pets, to domesticating livestock as a source of food, or dogs to help us hunt and herd, or horses and cattle as beasts of burden. The domestication of the aforementioned animals serves a *vital practical purpose* and improves the quality of life to humans, whereas selective breeding of snakes (or any animal) for pets serves a non-vital purpose. That's a very important difference to acknowledge. We're comparing apples and oranges there. However, I think the example that another person brought up about culling puppies because they pee on the floor is very applicable here. That's essentially what is being done to those snakes. They're being killed for behaving like snakes.

I like the CS community. I've learned a lot in my short time here, but i do not and will never agree with culling for convenience. I am shocked that there aren't more people who disagree with this practice. Perhaps those who disagree are simply remaining silent, haven't read the thread, or would rather choose to avoid conflict (which i normally would do). I hope that this culling practice is not the accepted norm in the breeding business, because if it is, then i've lost all respect for this hobby, am ashamed to be a part of it, and i will make sure to never buy a snake from a breeder who treats their animals that way.

Good thread. I think learning your limits and really REALLY thinking about your pairings is important. I really hate it when people breed just because they can, or will throw together any pair of snakes lying around. The market is flooded, and people really need to be more discriminating with their pairings.

This season I've only got 2 pairings planned out of 25+ animals, because I only want to produce the best and make sure I have a good chance of selling the babies (and not even at a profit!) Last year I only had 1 pairing. The first year I bred Corns, 2007, I only had 1 pairing. If I wanted, I could easily get half a dozen clutches right now.

Not condemning anyone who breeds a lot of pairs, I just think it's important to think about quality instead of quantity.

Ah, I guess the thread has become about culling.

Out of the 1 pair I had last year, they produced 2 clutches. I culled the entire 2nd clutch because they never ate. Humane culling for ANY reason is not cruel, that's pretty much the entire point of 'euthanasia'. If you are culling a snake for being mean, the wrong color, or for being deformed, the animal is dead either way and died a humane death.

I'd even go to say that I respect a person breeding for temperament/color that culls sub-par animals more than someone who pumps out babies without any discrimination or planning at all just because they can or because they like looking at baby snakes.

I have to agree with Candachan. I would respect that person, even if I didn't necessarily agree. At least they are breeding with a purpose, instead of just churning something out for the sake of it. Reminds me too much of puppy mills.
And it just seems to me (IMO) that is a very hard line to draw of what is truly acceptable. If a snake is kinked it is ok to cull ( but it really could live a trouble free existence), but in someones opinion of temperment the snake is deformed, but it is not ok for them to cull. Just illustrating here. Like I said a difficult line.
Also just an opinion, but I would think if you did your research on the breeder and found out what they do, you could then make your own decision whether or not you are willing to support or not, their practices by either making a purchase from them or not.

Candachan said:

I culled the entire 2nd clutch because they never ate.

Click to expand...

I feel that this is acceptable because they probably would have died anyway. You were being humane by not prolonging their suffering.

Candachan said:

Humane culling for ANY reason is not cruel, that's pretty much the entire point of 'euthanasia'. If you are culling a snake for being mean, the wrong color, or for being deformed, the animal is dead either way and died a humane death.

Click to expand...

This is where i disagree with you. How can killing an animal for being the wrong color be considered humane? Definition of humane: characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed

Candachan said:

I'd even go to say that I respect a person breeding for temperament/color that culls sub-par animals more than someone who pumps out babies without any discrimination or planning at all just because they can or because they like looking at baby snakes.

Click to expand...

Now you're just choosing the lesser of two evils.

smallet said:

I have to agree with Candachan. I would respect that person, even if I didn't necessarily agree. At least they are breeding with a purpose, instead of just churning something out for the sake of it. Reminds me too much of puppy mills.
And it just seems to me (IMO) that is a very hard line to draw of what is truly acceptable. If a snake is kinked it is ok to cull ( but it really could live a trouble free existence), but in someones opinion of temperment the snake is deformed, but it is not ok for them to cull. Just illustrating here. Like I said a difficult line.
Also just an opinion, but I would think if you did your research on the breeder and found out what they do, you could then make your own decision whether or not you are willing to support or not, their practices by either making a purchase from them or not.

Click to expand...

Hatchlings can be nippy, but with time and effort, most will grow out of that nippy phase and be just as docile as ones that are hatched not nippy. It seems that some breeders don't want to invest the time. They would rather take the convenient route.

Kinks can be considered a physical deformity, something abnormal, so i can accept how someone could rationalize themselves into culling them. Regarding personality/temperament... they're snakes ... let's put fair expectations on their behavior.

slitheringdead said:

This is where i disagree with you. How can killing an animal for being the wrong color be considered humane? Definition of humane: characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed

Click to expand...

Euthanasia means 'good death' and is when something is killed with the least amount of suffering or fear. The reasoning for the actual death is not part of the definition. The compassion and sympathy comes with the fact that you are lessening the pain or stress while you do the deed, you can very easily cull healthy animals AND be compassionate and humane. If you culled animals by hitting them with a hammer, then I could agree that it's not humane. The animal does not know the reasoning behind it's own death.

Me: Hey Baby Snake, we have to talk.
BS: Sup.
Me: Look, I'm sorry but I gotta cull you.
BS: What?! Is it because I'm not the right color? You are a monster!
Me: No, it's because you don't eat and are losing weight.
BS: Oh, well in that case, it's cool. Carry on.

A good example of this is test breedings for Stargazing. Babies from these breedings are usually culled because they are het Stargazers. They are otherwise perfectly healthy animals, and not actually Stargazers themselves. But they are culled for the betterment of the species. You can't keep clutches of SG animals because you can't guarantee they won't be bred, even if sold to pet homes (especially if sold to 'pet homes' considering all the people I know that breed their pet store and Craigslist animals).

I am Not saying I agree with that person. But at least respect that they are trying to (in their opinion) improve the breed.
I am saying I would ask questions before buying and decide whether I support their ideals by either buying from them or not.
It is my biggest complaint with pet stores. You have no idea nor can you find out any history behind either the animal or the person who bred it.

I agree and understand that you can kill an animal humanely. My statement was related to the reasoning behind why you needed to kill the animal. Yes, the animal doesn't understand the reasoning and why it's being killed... that's pretty obvious, so i'm not sure why you had to make up that dialogue. You're really trivializing the importance of its life. Yes, i understand it's a snake and not high up on the food chain as other animals, but we as humans, need to make a best effort in treating all life with respect. If you are killing the animal simply because it was the wrong color, as defined by you, then you are not being humane. You may be killing it humanely, but you are not being humane in your decision to kill it.