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Culling 'side product' hatchlings

Culling hatchlings:

  • is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life

    Votes: 155 74.5%

  • 1 + when they are 'side products' and end up in pet shops, overflowing the market

    Votes: 5 2.4%

  • 1 + when hybrid hatchlings can be mistaken for pure, threatening the mass market with their genes

    Votes: 9 4.3%

  • 1 + 2 + 3

    Votes: 24 11.5%

  • is ok when..... (see my post)

    Votes: 2 1.0%

  • is never a good thing to do, even a deformed/week hatchling should only die by its defect

    Votes: 13 6.3%
  • Total voters
    208
I have chosen the first option (is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life) but as most of my post regarding discussions, there is a "but".

I agree with you tyflier that the (quote) "sickly, deformed, chronically pained" should not be put through the ordeal of dying a long, possibly painful death and be assisted to have a short/quick/painfree death.

However, the non feeders should be given a chance. Just look at what Diamondlil did with Lil and Skooter! They ended up eating by themselves.
Eventhough we are still wainting on further update on Skooter as she is back home now, Lil is now a big healthy snake. See Diamondlil's thread (the saga continues........) about them both, it might change someones mind about just thinking "oh well, he/she is not eating, let's just end it", no no no, that is not fair and when you are and animal owner, you have the obligation to do your best by your animal, snake or no snake.

I was horrified by what I read in Vinman's thread (Sunkissed Jungle Corns), come on, would you also kill a baby/child (I know it is an extreme comparison) if he/she did not agree with the way he/she should look??

Susan, I am wondering, if you do not have time to take care of 200/250 hatchling, why do you breed so many snakes? Can't you just breed specific ones to have less and lessen your work loads therefore avoid culling some which are "too many"?
Susan said:
You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!
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This used to be true but now parents need to pay heavy tax for the right to have a second child ;)

I am friend with Blutengel and we already do not agree with co-hab but we have agreed to disagreed. Should she go with the "selective look" culling, I would also agree to disagreed but would discuss it with her to see if I could understand "why" but then would not want to hear about it because my heart would sink. It is indeed (like you said Susan) her personal business and I should not judge her by our difference of view points.

Anyway, we are all individuals and all have our own points of view which is what makes us different and if we were all the same the world would be a boring place.

Right, I'll stop rambling and get on with my day, I hope all of you are having a nice Eater week end :santa:
 
jenkva said:
Susan, I am wondering, if you do not have time to take care of 200/250 hatchling, why do you breed so many snakes? Can't you just breed specific ones to have less and lessen your work loads therefore avoid culling some which are "too many"?
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Let me state this yet a third (or is it a fourth) time...I used my own situation as a EXAMPLE, and nowhere in that example did I state that I have actually done that kind of culling.
I HAVE NEVER CULLED ANY OF MY HATCHLINGS DO TO THEIR NUMBER!
It is an option for me that I could use, and I am not against anyone, including myself, using it. To date, I have only culled deformed hatchlings and problem feeders.
 
Susan said:
Let me state this yet a third (or is it a fourth) time...I used my own situation as a EXAMPLE, and nowhere in that example did I state that I have actually done that kind of culling.
I HAVE NEVER CULLED ANY OF MY HATCHLINGS DO TO THEIR NUMBER!
It is an option for me that I could use, and I am not against anyone, including myself, using it. To date, I have only culled deformed hatchlings and problem feeders.
Click to expand...
Susan, sorry if I did not express myself properly. You did mentioned that it would be an option due to lack of time, hence my question. Please do not take it as an attack which it wasn't. You said it was an option were you would not have any problem with, I was just curious, that is all. :shrugs:
 
Susan, to me saying that you would cull because of numbers, is the same as actually have done it, when it comes to discussing it. Why do you think there is a difference? You think you might chance your mind when the situation occurs in which you say you would cull because of numbers?

Further, on feeding the hatchlings of to other animals, in snake business that is used as an excuse. Though it is a good point that they are not wasted and others thrive on them, i'm pretty sure the breeders feeding off excess hatchlings, would not breed these snakes to feed their kings or lizards only. Probably they would not even keep these waste bin animals....

On snakes eating animals; that is a necessary to keep them alive. If you take care well of the feeder animals, you are not in any way disrespecting nature IMO. I assume any breeder would feed their snakes tofu it that would work as well.

Breeding new and more beautiful snakes, does not add any quality to the species itself, no it is the opposite; inbreeding is part of breeding new morphs and more beautiful lines, which does not benefit snakes at all. Breeding with only healthy snakes, does add to the quality of snake population.
 
Russell said:
I agree with Susan totally, you can't guarantee they will have a good quality life! I doubt even HALF the babies I've sold over the years are still alive. The way things seem to go locally, I'm thinking that number is closer to 75 percent! Why? escapes, ignorance, lack of skill, and misjudgements in caring for even well started corns. I got a PM recently from someone who bought four well started corns from me and she told me in so many words that the last one recently died, and she doesn't really know why. And that it had sticky fluid coming from it's mouth when found dead...

So, now all four babies are dead before I hear of this... Kathy's manuals sit collecting dust in pet chains everywhere cause people won't pick up the book, read it, and APPLY it!!!!

I was furious after I got this PM. Why did I bother sending these poor jewels to their torturous death? I'm better not ever knowing what happens to my babies by selling to my wholesaler friend who then sells to pet stores. Hear no evil...

I cull heavily when I breed snakes. If they won't eat after everyone else is on meal four. They are put down. If a baby eats a few meals and gets into this skip a few, eat a few, fall behind the rest...they get put down. I just won't deal with poor doers in my bunch. I also check for any kink of any kind possible, and recently, make sure both eyes look normal. If anything is out of whack there, they get put down. There are literally tons of just fine corns out there, I don't need to add my deformed stuff into the mix!

A post made somewhere else by Kathy Love pretty much summed it up for me. We are a fuzzy Disneyland fairy tale belief, so terribly removed from the real world... Yes, respect life guys, but there is a cold harsh undertow that so many seem so far removed from... I mean, it's to the point if my dog got treated the same as I am at work, it would be called abuse and someone would spend time in jail!

I'll place human life over animal life any time. Why? Cause that's my value despite my disgust with the general populace! Death is as much a part of life more than too many people realize. This just reeks more of the Peta theme the more you try to, oh we shouldn't just kill things... It's what they've been preaching for years!

So I voted for the first three. If I feel there is something off about a hatchling or older corn, I'll put them down. If I'm producing a TON of normals, and know that my wholesaler can't use so many, I'll only keep what I consider the nicest normals. That's been done before.

Maybe I hold the unpopular view, but then, that's somehow never bothered me...
Click to expand...

But if you think it is disrespectfull to cull and hate the fact that your animals end up dying, why not find a system of breeding what you want without producing tons of excess hatchlings? Is it because that would be more expensive becaue you have to buy homozygous animals, or would you not be able to breed as much morphs as you want? Or....? You are not obliged to breed snakes you know...

I do not like the idea of snakes ending up in pet stores, that is why I do not breed my bairdi to my yellow ratsnake. I would never be able to sell the hatchlings all to people who appreciate them and with enough kwowledge to take care of them properly. Would it be (more) respectfull to nature to breed these snakes, cull of most of the baby's and then keep 1 or 2 just because I want to?

For the record; I do value life of people much higher then the life of animals, I would cull thousands of corns to save a human life, but that is not the discussion here. The issue is, that I think we are intelligent enough to find a way to enjoy our breeding hobby without having to cull healthy animals, but somehow it happens.
 
This has been a great discussion. I'm siding with those who feel that culling is completely at the discretion of the individual. Susan, Charlene, and Russell have already elaborated on the points I would make, so I don't have much to add. :)
 
I'm also very happy to see how the discussion is goign so far, all being polite and such. I also am happy with the poll answers so far, but that is of course because of my opinion. I hope many others will vote at least!
 
I'm not a breeder, but I do understand the need for culling. But has anyone thought about the owners of these snakes. Not all of us have the time like Dimondlil to get their snakes to eat nor do we have the experience. How many new snake owners have gotten a poor feeder and it did die regardless of what was done. I was one of those owners 4 years ago she ate but was unhealthy to begin with.

It took me 4 years to pick up another snake, and to purchase. Others never do. I really wish my first had been healthy. It looked healthy but what was comming out the other end was not. I only know that now because I own a healthy snake. I wish the first would have been culled and not saved to make the almighty buck, at my and Maxine's expense.

Thereare many more breeders on this site than there were 4-5 years ago, and so many more snakes being breed. I feel culling more vigorously for feeding responses and any thing that is off is fine. Those being feed to other snakes great, no waste. Mice are breed just to be used for food for snakes, we don't see anything wrong with this, after all our snakes need to eat.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I agree Donna. I feel that a poor feeding response could easily be labeled a defect, after all, we don't know what causes poor/non-feeders to begin with. We know that they occur in the wild, and these snakes are used to sustain other animals (possibly siblings). This natural "defect" has a purpose - and this is why snakes have clutches. Not all babies are supposed to survive. When we force them to live, we only perpetuate whatever problems that snake had to begin with and we pass these problems on to future owners to deal with. Some snakes get past the poor-feeding stage just fine and pose no problems to the new owners after a period of time, but how do we prevent those snakes from being bred? An obviously deformed snake is less likely to be bred than an internally defective snake, but a snake that is defective internally is no more viable than a snake with clearly visible anomalies. Culling is not the easiest choice to make, but in these cases it is the most responsible if our goal is to better future generations and eventually weed out harmful genes from our population.
 
I have to add here to this discussion. What happened with Lil has given me a wonderful pet snake, who I am hoping has no long-tern effects from her bad start. Right at the start though, I did ask myself whether euthanasia would be an option. If I hadn't been able to get her feeding and growing, I would have euthanised Lil. I'll never sell her, so she won't get the chance to pass along any problems. Being a female, there is the chance that as she matures she will produce slugs that could be too much of a strain on her system.
In the case of Skooge, I feel that I did the wrong thing in helping her along once her kinks became obvious. If she had been my snake, I would have euthanised her once the extent of her deformities became evident. She was not mine, and her owner didn't want me to euthanise her if she started eating, which she did. The decision wasn't mine to make.
Now I have the hope that I will have eggs that hatch this year. I will not hesitate in culling kinked or bad-feeding hatchlings. I have an outlet for my small-scale breeding, but my experience with Skooge has taught me that I will only have control of what happens to the snakes up to the point that they belong to someone else. I cannot keep every poorly snake myself, so any that are not healthy wll be culled. As I've bred gerbils guineapigs and finches in the past I know that not every animal is meant to survive.
I would never condemn anyone else culling for their own reasons. I kept Lil alive for my own selfish reasons, for my emotions. I did not do what was best for her, I did what was best for me.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to diamondlil again.

For being sincere and able to admit you made a decision you would not make again. :cheers:
 
Great discussion!

But darn, y'all have already said most of what I would have said, lol! But I am going to say it again anyway, in my own words.

I only cull for health problems because I have so many beginner customers who want healthy, inexpensive, pet quality snakes ("by products of other projects") that the normal or "not so pretty" babies will all find homes.

A few of you have already touched on the ideas below, but to me they are "the meat" of the issue, so I will also mention what I feel is important.

1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?

Although I don't keep kingsnakes anymore, all of my culled snakes go to feed kings or coral snakes - I really hate waste. I would guess that other corn breeders also feed their culls to their own kings or to other hungry snakes they know about.

I personally would feel terrible just raising my corns to feed kings (I happen to like corns better than I like mice!). But I would not think it less ethical to raise the corns for food than to raise other animals for food - just less cost effective, lol! As long as the culled snakes are humanely euthanized, used, and not wasted, I don't see much difference.

2. Selling to pet shops or to beginners. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that many babies of every species will not make it to adulthood, whether they are captive born or born in the wild. Most in the wild will become food for something else. Many captive born will be purchased by somebody who will not take care of them properly, or will just succumb to some accident or disease.

It is the breeder's job to provide a healthy baby and as much correct information as possible, and consultation as requested. But the responsibility is not infinite. We do not live in a perfect world and can't take responsibility for rest of the life of each baby, and its progeny.

I certainly made some stupid mistakes, especially when first starting out. I STILL make a stupid mistake now and then, but not as often as when I first started. People have always made stupid mistakes and always will - sometimes through ignorance, sometimes through neglect or momentary thoughtlessness. Since this is the case, isn't it better to learn on a farm bred animal than a wild caught specimen?

I am not saying we should tolerate stupidity or ignorance or indifference. We should try to do what we can to right the situation whenever possible. But the reality is that they will occur, and I feel it is better to sell to the pet store or beginner and try to combat their ignorance, than to refuse to sell to them in hopes they will go away. I am also not saying that EVERYONE should do this if they don't want to, just that it is something to consider.

I believe that everyone should do pretty much what they want to do - whatever they feel is right. AS LONG AS THE ANIMALS ARE TREATED HUMANELY, whether the breeder chooses to raise them up, sell to whomever they want to, or euthanize them all and feed them to kingsnakes, is an individual decision, IMHO, of course.
 
kathylove said:
1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?
Click to expand...

Food is necessary by nature if you want to keep your snakes alive. Breeding snakes for morph or color purposes, is not necessary by nature. Of course, one could just not breed snakes to not have to feed them mice, but if these mice are kept properly, they are respected and serve a natural purpose. Any breeder would feed snakes vegetables if they thrived on it, but it is just not possible... breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible...
 
kathylove said:
But darn, y'all have already said most of what I would have said, lol! But I am going to say it again anyway, in my own words.

I only cull for health problems because I have so many beginner customers who want healthy, inexpensive, pet quality snakes ("by products of other projects") that the normal or "not so pretty" babies will all find homes.

A few of you have already touched on the ideas below, but to me they are "the meat" of the issue, so I will also mention what I feel is important.

1. Why is the life of a "farmed snake" more important than the lives of farmed mice, cows, chickens, etc, that are raised for food for us or our pets? If somebody wants to breed snakes to feed other snakes, or culls them for whatever reason they choose, why is that worse than farming other species expressly to kill them?

Although I don't keep kingsnakes anymore, all of my culled snakes go to feed kings or coral snakes - I really hate waste. I would guess that other corn breeders also feed their culls to their own kings or to other hungry snakes they know about.

I personally would feel terrible just raising my corns to feed kings (I happen to like corns better than I like mice!). But I would not think it less ethical to raise the corns for food than to raise other animals for food - just less cost effective, lol! As long as the culled snakes are humanely euthanized, used, and not wasted, I don't see much difference.

2. Selling to pet shops or to beginners. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that many babies of every species will not make it to adulthood, whether they are captive born or born in the wild. Most in the wild will become food for something else. Many captive born will be purchased by somebody who will not take care of them properly, or will just succumb to some accident or disease.

It is the breeder's job to provide a healthy baby and as much correct information as possible, and consultation as requested. But the responsibility is not infinite. We do not live in a perfect world and can't take responsibility for rest of the life of each baby, and its progeny.

I certainly made some stupid mistakes, especially when first starting out. I STILL make a stupid mistake now and then, but not as often as when I first started. People have always made stupid mistakes and always will - sometimes through ignorance, sometimes through neglect or momentary thoughtlessness. Since this is the case, isn't it better to learn on a farm bred animal than a wild caught specimen?

I am not saying we should tolerate stupidity or ignorance or indifference. We should try to do what we can to right the situation whenever possible. But the reality is that they will occur, and I feel it is better to sell to the pet store or beginner and try to combat their ignorance, than to refuse to sell to them in hopes they will go away. I am also not saying that EVERYONE should do this if they don't want to, just that it is something to consider.

I believe that everyone should do pretty much what they want to do - whatever they feel is right. AS LONG AS THE ANIMALS ARE TREATED HUMANELY, whether the breeder chooses to raise them up, sell to whomever they want to, or euthanize them all and feed them to kingsnakes, is an individual decision, IMHO, of course.
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kathy so well put, you allways put thoughts so well in writing
 
"...breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible..."

That is not always true. If you are trying to combine 2 or 3 or 4 different traits together, you will get many normal, possible hets. They may make perfectly good pets, but will be culls as far your future breeding goes.

If everyone just changed projects so they don't produce any normal, possible hets, then we would not have any new traits, since almost all started with one mutant animal that had to be bred out, producing a lot of unwanted male hets.
 
kathylove said:
"...breeding something else if your prefered project produces hatchlings you'd have to cull IS possible..."

That is not always true. If you are trying to combine 2 or 3 or 4 different traits together, you will get many normal, possible hets. They may make perfectly good pets, but will be culls as far your future breeding goes.

If everyone just changed projects so they don't produce any normal, possible hets, then we would not have any new traits, since almost all started with one mutant animal that had to be bred out, producing a lot of unwanted male hets.
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Ok, that is true (I even wrote that down myself in the other thread, LOL) but I guess if we would only have to deal with hets from those projects culling because of numbers would not be an issue, do you?
 
I guess it depends on the breeder and their individual situation. I have plenty of of customers who would like those by products. But a person with a few hundred babies and a full time job may not have the same customer base that I do.

I still do not see why it is bad for them to feed their extras to a kingsnake instead of feeding mice to the kingsnake - if they want to do that. Although I like corns better than mice, why is it "better" (more ethical?) to feed mice than corns to a king?
 
Anyone who keeps snakes and feeds them rodents can't really justify the "sanctity of life" argument for not culling unwanted snakes.

If your argument is merely that the animal has a right to live its life just because someone bred it, then you should apply the same argument to all of the mice and rats that are killed to feed those snakes. How is a snake any more deserving of life than a rat or mouse?

Using that justification, the snake would be LESS deserving of life than a rat or mouse because over it's lifetime it will result in the loss of life of thousands of mice and rats.

I've been breeding mice and natal rats as feeders for a while now, so perhaps my thinking is skewed, but I don't personally see anything wrong with a breeder culling any of their snakes if they cannot be cared for or sold.

If I do decide to breed any of my corn snakes next year, it will be on a very small scale so I can test the waters locally to see how hard it is to sell them either over the internet, at a show or to local pet shops. Plus, with the genetics of my older corns that will be of breeding age and size next year, I will probably end up with mostly normals and low end morphs anyway.
 
kathylove said:
I still do not see why it is bad for them to feed their extras to a kingsnake instead of feeding mice to the kingsnake - if they want to do that. Although I like corns better than mice, why is it "better" (more ethical?) to feed mice than corns to a king?
Click to expand...

It is not more ethical to feed mice to a snake, I do see that in case of breeding snakes feeding redundant animals to other reptiles at least they do not get wasted, but it is not the purpose of the breeder to breed them as food, they are a side product of something he does for his own enjoyment only.... in any other breeding business, redundant animals cannot be fed to others, so then it might be more obvious what I mean. They would be wasted...
 
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